PLEASE help a new guy!

[996_Bound]

Hey everyone,

Man I am so excited!!! I've always been an American muscle car guy, Vettes, Grand Nationals, Chevelles. I have also owned to older 911, a 79 SC and a 68 912E. Anyway I have drooled over these 996 cars ever since they came out and I sold my last muscle car and have been searching desperately for several weeks now, all the usual sources (cars.com/autotrader/ebay/forums/etc.) Anyway I have found a gorgeous, sliver/black (my favorite color) coupe with tiptronic, and a black coupe manual, and I am close on buying one of them but have a couple questions for you experienced guys. Here is my problem:

I have been researching prices for weeks now and basically it seems like 18K is the magic number that will get you a cherry 1999 911 with between 60-70K miles and documented history. Some guys ask a lot more then that for identical cars and I don't think they will sell them in this market (just based on what I have seen) and they probably don't care too, but as a buyer I have to look at that. I don't want to pay more for one then it is worth today, regaurdless of what may happen in the future.

I can get the black coupe (second choice) and it has regular halogens up front which I don't really want. The price is 18K and it is a 2 owner car with the current owner having it the last 10 years and documented history of service.

The silver coupe, the one I REALLY REALLY WANT, he won't come down from 19K and here are the specs on his car. Total mileage on the chassis is 119K with a new engine replacement at 96K. Had a new suspension put in it 10K miles ago, an M30 (which I don't know what that is). It also has the HID projection beams on it which I really really want. It is a tiptronic auto which doesn't bother me, I can go either way on that option.

I just can't see paying more for a car with many more miles on it, but it does have a new engine (and all paperwork was given to me everything is documented). But maybe I should? I don't have any concept of how an engine replacement hurts/helps the value of these cars. Does it make them worse less, more, who says and why??? I have found a perfect silver coupe as well with the HID's and 49K original miles but the guy wants 21, 500 which actually seems very fair but I don't want to pay that much for a toy right now but I am mentioning it as another point of reference. Help, what do I do here? Thanks for any help.

[Jim Dorociak]

Do yourself a favor and research the reliability of the early 996 cars. I hope I am not upsetting any current 996 owners, but I believe after the 2002 model the reliability was much better. Keep reading. The water cooled cars do not live as long as the air cooled cars do. There have been many unhappy 996 owners. jim

[racer]

M030 refers to the Porsche part number for the optional "sports suspension".. which in the US gives you stiffer springs and maybe larger sway bars(?). The US spec M030 does NOT lower the car. The euro, or ROW, M030 does include lowering springs.

Do an internet search for the terms

1) RMS (rear main seal)
2) IMS (intermediate shaft)
3) D-Chunking

Then check out a place like flatsix innovations and LN engineering. I think wayne (owner of pelican) has a similar "fix" as the LN component.

Bottom line is that there are issues with ALL M96 (again, porsche internal code) based motors. This includes 986 and 987s (boxsters and caymans) and 996 and 997s (911s - except for the Twin Turbo and GT3 motors)

There were improvements with the 2002 year 3.6 motors.. and again in 2006 on the 997 motors.

Is $1,000 really a big deal if its the car you "really really want"? I'd want some specs on the replacement motor and any warranty that comes with it. IIRC, most 3.4 996 replacement motors will cost you $10-15k out the door.

Tiptronic? well, that's personal choice. I see times when it may make sense and I see more times when it doesn't

Keep doing your research and learn about the option codes and items you may or may not want. No point "rushing" the decision.

[bxtech]

996's can be a real bargain in today's market! A very modern Porsche 911 with all of the later technology......at a price that is comparable to older 911's! However, as racer mentioned, these cars DO have have their issues, particularly with their engines. A "good" deal can turn into a really BAD deal with the wrong car!!

The silver one you're considering sounds nice.......especially with the new engine. I assume that it's a brand new crate engine? Or does it have a "new" rebuilt, or newly replaced used engine? You mentioned about the receipts/paperwork for the engine, but nothing about history or previous documentation with this car....... Is there any? How about the trans? Any major work or rebuild done to it? I don't know about the "lifetime" of these tiptronic units, but a friend had an '01 that went bad at 130K+ miles. Maybe some more knowledgeable people can chime in about the reliability on these?

Also, from what I've noticed......tiptronic cars are much less desirable and are tougher to sell, and they sell for considerably lower than manual cars. Also, any of these 996's with over 100K seem to be on the low desirability/low price range too.

My opinion is to do a lot of research and learn as much as you can about these cars! There is a lot of good people here willing to help and a lot of good info on this forum alone! Also, get a PPI! As for Jim's advice of the later 2002 cars........I agree. I've heard that the reliability is better, plus it has the larger engine, and the updated front end/headlights.

[bxtech]

racer......I am familiar with the IMS/RMS problems, but what is D-Chunking??

[996_Bound]

Hey everyone, thanks for the replies, some more thoughts/info. First off I was worried about this "negative" reaction that Jim posted. I have read about the problems, and should have said that I have researched the IMS, and RMS problems. From speaking with Porsche mechanics I have found that mostly the cars that are never driven with extremely low miles are the ones affected by IMS failure do to moisture in the bearings. They have said with cars that are driven regularly and have over 40-50K miles it is HIGHLY unlikely they would have the issue. This is also partly why I am looking at a car like this one with a new engine already in place.

As far as RMS, that is just a leak correct? I have read articles that state you fix it when it bothers you. Coming from American muscle cars almost every car I have owned leaked from there. Besides the fix is like 1500 bucks right, at least that is what I have read, or maybe even less, so I don't see the big deal there unless I am missing something?

I know that these cars may not be the perfect choice for someone that never wants to have a maintenance issue, but these are the cars I'm in love with. I do not want a newer 2X as expensive car, not b/c I can't afford it, but b/c what I want is one of these. I bought a Lexus RX300 (daily driver) years ago and when I signed up at the forums I got an onslought of "wow you made a mistake", "these are maintenance nightmares", "you'll wish you never" and that really sucked. I'm not saying that is what is happening here with Jim's comment, it just is hard when you come for advice/interaction on something you love to hear that right out of the gate. The RX300 has been the best suv I have ever owned. I've never had a problem out of it, I know that doesn't mean that it won't happen tomorrow but I would do nothing but highly recommend it. I know that 99% of the people that are happy with their 911's may not be posting on the forums on the internet, so I feel that the "negative" views are always skewed b/c unhappy customers post their feelings much more then satisfied people.

Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate your viewpoint, I just don't want to feel the same way I did on the Lexus forums years ago. I absolutely love these cars, I have had older 911's, Corvettes, Chevelles, Grand Nationals, Cobras, Supercharged Mustangs, etc. etc. and I don't really get excited about cars anymore just b/c I have had a lot of them. But these 996's do something to me that I haven't felt in a long time, I grin ear to ear when I hear one drive past and I am going to buy one.

With all that said I want to give some answers to questions that were asked. First in regards to the engine. I have attached a picture below that the guy sent me showing part #'s etc. and what was done. He made sure I understood it was a new one from Porsche and that is extremely important when looking at one with a "new" engine. Maybe that will help you experts help me, b/c I am not sure what I am looking for.

Second BXTECH asked about the tranny. It is original with 119K miles with the rest of the car. I called my Porsche mechanic (shop I would use when I buy the car) and asked him about the tiptronic. He said he never sees problems with them and not to worry about that. I asked him worst case scenario and he said a couple grand to put in a used one if there was a complete failure. I have know idea if this is high/low what, just telling you what he told me. I also thought the same thing about the tiptronic not being as desireable and the higher mileage, that is why I orginally posted the question about wouldn't I be paying too much to do 19K for this?

And to answer the question about 1000 bucks seperating me from the car I really want, no, you are right, I probably shouldn't, but like everyone I would like the best/fairest deal I can get. Guess it is a mentality for me, people that seem to not care about spending money generally do not have that much (in my personal experience), and I do care, and don't want to just blow 1000 bucks b/c I can if that makes sense. I'm trying to do the prudent thing by asking for help and I really appreciate you guys responding. I know it is taking a chance with a high end car, but it ALWAYS is I think. Hell, maybe it is with any car, you can always find people that have just rotten luck and if they get a motor fixed their tranny goes bad, if they get that fix their wheel falls off, you know.

So would it be fair to assume the car is or isn't worth 19K b/c of the mileage (overall) and having the tiptronic, or does the new motor offset that and it is fair? Does the paperwork image help or do I need to ask for more from the seller? Thanks for all your help guys!

[racer]

D chunking: http://www.lnengineering.com/boxster.html shows some images if you scroll fown.

Tip = yeah... $2500 is about fair. A local owner of a TIP Boxster had his fail and replacement numbers sound similar.

TIP = Automatic. Don't confuse with the PDK.

New Motor, New suspension certainly makes a stronger argument on a $19K, 100K+ mile car.

I think what generally annoys me about the M96 motors is that well, they just don't seem as reliable as the older cars. As such, I would be sure to have, available, to money on hand to deal with a potential motor failure. Just because your motor is "new" doesn't mean the same issues won't rear their head. Hopefully they wont and you will be one of a few with another 100K miles of trouble free driving.


Also curious about the history of this car.. yes, new motor, installed 5 years ago, but only 20K miles ago. This reaks of the very same issue you said about "only low mileage engines" seem to suffer. 4K miles/year seems low miles to me.

[bxtech]

996 Bound...........I wouldn't really consider Jim's response a "negative" one. He is just letting you know about the potential problems that might be lurking with these early 996's. There are a lot of good people here on Pelican who are genuinely looking to help and to give good advice. We are not looking to make you feel bad with your purchase, but want you to be aware of what to look for and what to potentially expect. We are just a sincere group of enthusiasts looking out for other enthusiasts!

As far as the silver '99 with the new engine you're considering........it really sounds like a nice car. $19K is on the high side for an early model, high mileage car with a tip, but the new engine and suspension does make it very appealing and of course brings the value up (as racer had mentioned). As you had asked in your first post about the value, I don't think a new engine really hurts the value any since these cars are not collectible yet and nobody is really concerned about matching numbers. If this were a 356 or an early 911S or similar, the non matching numbers would definitely be a negative. Maybe in 50 years the replacement engine will be a concern, but for now I would consider it an increase in value.

I'm not trying to be negative or nit pick, but I think in any purchase you have to be critical and check out as much as you can. Looking at your scanned receipt, it just gives the part number and it says "Eng 3.4 litre" at a price of $8K It does say "new engine" on the right top corner, but it's with a different handwriting and different color pen. Probably not a concern, but since there is no dealer invoice/receipt maybe you'd like to verify with Porsche that in fact it IS a brand new engine?? I would obtain the engine number and call Porsche themselves. The engine number is on the bottom and stamped out in what looks like a computer dot matrix style numbering. I know this was done in '05, but a new dealer engine @ $8K seems a bit low on the price to me. I know that a new 3.4 litre engine 2 years ago retails at $13K from the dealer. Overall though, $10,500 for a brand new engine including labor sounds like a pretty decent deal!

As far as the tip transmission.......I agree, you can get a replacement for relatively cheap. I've seen some good used ones as low as $500 from people converting their cars to manual. However, $2000 can easily put you at $21K which is close to the price of that perfect silver one you found at $21.5K, in which you mentioned you didn't want to spend that much on. Once again, not trying to be negative, just something to think about.

[bxtech]

racer, thanks for the link! I haven't really heard about that D chunking.........Boy that's some serious stuff!!

I agree......These M96 engines are definitely not as reliable as the older engines. However, it's not like the old 2.7's with head stud problems or running hot, or the 3.2's with valve guide problems, these 3.4's have some catastrophic issues! RMS, IMS, D chunking, cylinder heads cracking, all at relatively low mileage......from what I can see, these are all bad engineering problems by Porsche themselves!

I know someone had mentioned on another thread before that they can't believe that Porsche has gotten away with this. If this were Honda or some other brand, there would be a class action lawsuit for engineering flaws. Basically, this is a high dollar car (when purchased new) and we should expect a lot better quality from such a high end car builder who is experienced with building great cars, and has been doing it for many many years now! Has anyone heard of a group putting together a lawsuit against Porsche for these problems? I would think this could be a pretty large group since it would include all early 996 and Boxster owners too. Don't get me wrong, I still love my 996, I am still a big fan of Porsche, and I always will be! I don't plan on, or want to initiate any lawsuit, but I was just curious if anyone else has.

[996_Bound]

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. You are right about the tranny, but again there is no garuntee on the 21.5 car with 50K miles that it won't break either then i'd be up to 24K I could have spent and that just goes on and on I guess. I found this article, seems like a very smart right up on the early 996 engine problems, basically it says only 5-10% were effected by complete failure so that is pretty good odds to me (last line of the article):

996 engine failure. Should you be worried? | Total 911

So 19K is a tad high, that is what I am feeling, I told him I'd give him 18K cash so we are kind of at a stalemate at this point and I'm still looking I guess. He seems like a really nice guy and I hope we put something together, but I'm also one of those "if it is meant to be it will work out" kinda guys.

[BYprodriver]

Congratulations 996 bound, I am a former muscle car fanatic also, welcome to the next dimension of automotive thrills. I agree with all the good advice you have gotten here so I will just add that the '99 for $19K with engine swap is entry level price for 996. Long standing advice for buying a Porsche is to buy the best quality car you can afford of the model you want.(996) So if you truly can spend more better to do it now than later. 2002 & later 996 has many upgrades including more power & reliability. I am saving for a 2002 Cabrio 6-speed & I will replace clutch, IMS,& RMS as soon as I get it.

P.S. Wife's car is a Lexus IS350 Club Lexus forum is the best!

[bxtech]

996 Bound.........did you buy a 996 yet? If not, I ran across one that sounds like a good deal! I will PM you the info.

[FPB111]

Here is some info from the PET. Maybe this will help. So your engine number would begin with 66X followed by a 5 digit serial number.

It is my understanding that if the engine has been replaced with a Porsche Factory remanufactured engine, there will be a 'AT' at the end of the serial number.

[Wayne 962]

I have a detailed article on all of the problems and issues with these motors, and what you should look out for. See the article here:

Pelican Technical Article: Common Engine Problems and Failures - 986 Boxster (1997-04) - 987 Boxster (2005-08)

-Wayne

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by 996_Bound

Hey everyone,

Man I am so excited!!! ... The silver coupe, the one I REALLY REALLY WANT, he won't come down from 19K and here are the specs on his car. Total mileage on the chassis is 119K with a new engine replacement at 96K. Had a new suspension put in it 10K miles ago, an M30 (which I don't know what that is). It also has the HID projection beams on it which I really really want. It is a tiptronic auto which doesn't bother me, I can go either way on that option.

I just can't see paying more for a car with many more miles on it, but it does have a new engine (and all paperwork was given to me everything is documented). But maybe I should? ...

... Well not sure are old you are but let say, $1000 difference over the next 20 years is about $4.1666666666666666666666666666666666666666667 a month to be exact.

That should settle this part of the equation