SVRA Race at Sonoma Raceway

[winders]

I have a nice battle with a Trans Am Mustang after screwing up the gear choice at the start:

[TRE Cup]

Nice ! Interesting on how the Mustang was holding you up a little it here and there till he overcooked and you got into the zone realizing the potential of your car gapping the hell out of him in a very short period of time
That "Falcon" was a rocket ship !
Thanks for sharing a good ride ;-)

[winders]

Holding me up a little here and there? I was at least 1.5 seconds a lap faster and he was in my way. He had a massive horsepower advantage that made it hard to setup a pass much less a pass that would stick.

My goal was to force him to over drive his car to protect his position. I figured either he would overheat his tires or he would make a mistake. I just hoped that mistake would come in a place that would allow me to make a pass that would stick. If I passed him in Turn 11, he would probably get back by me by Turn 1. Turn 7 was the best place to make a pass and make it stick as I was much faster from the exit of Turn 7 to Turn 11. As you saw, once he was out of my way exiting Turn 7, I could run away from him.

That Falcon was driven by Thomas Merrill and had over 800HP. It is basically a 2008 Trans Am chassis with a 1963 Ford Falcon body stretched and widened. It is fast! Like 5 seconds a lap faster than my car.

[ted]

looking good Winders!

[Cajundaddy]

Fun! Typical Mustang getting out and walking his car around the corners and then disappearing on the straights. It is clear you were turning faster laps but sometimes it's tough to get around those guys. I had my first weekend at Sonoma last December with Lemons and it is interesting to see various defensive lines. An important element in a field of 170 clown cars.

[GUMBALL]

When you were behind the Mustang and looking for a way by, you tended to follow his lines through several corners. As he was obviously getting ragged under pressure, following him was removing the advantages that were available to you.
I liked the moves you made at the end of the straight on braking - moving around to force him to look in the mirror at the wrong time.
Once you got by, your lines improved noticeably and you completely ran away from him.

[winders]

I was harrying the Mustang the most in the corners I had a chance to pass him in and tended to follow him through several of the corners where I could not pass as to stay as close as possible and to fill his mirrors.

Of course my lines improved noticeably once I got by...I didn't have a Mustang to harry anymore...I could focus on going as fast as I could.

There are not many great places to pass at Sonoma Raceway when there is a car is in front of you with a significant horsepower advantage and reasonable handling. Even if you are 1.5 seconds a lap faster. I pretty much needed the Mustang driver to make an entry or braking mistake. He took the inside line away from me in the corners that I did have a chance of passing in and I could not just drive around him on the outside. My goal was to get him to over drive his car so he would either make a mistake or over heat his tires and lose even more pace in the corners.

The most likely places for the mistakes are turns 4, 7, and 11 with 7 and 11 the most probable. I was not going to be able to pass in turns 1, 2, 3, 3a, 5, 6, 8, 8a, 9, 10, or 12 unless he made a big (like going off track) mistake. Even turns 4 and 7 require a significant mistakes. Turn 11 is the most likely place to pass because I was faster through turn 10 and could stay closer to him into turn 11. But, even if I got him in turn 11, he would probably get back ahead by turn 1.

Turn 7 is the best corner for me to pass him and make it stick as I was significantly better than he was in the turn 7 through turn 11 section of track. Because of the run he would get out of turn 6, the mistake in 7 needed to bigger than it would be in turn 11.

The Mustang made the mistake I needed in Turn 7! Once I got by, it was all over.

[GUMBALL]

For example:
.
Turn 6 (the carousel) is a difficult corner to make a pass on entry . . . BUT, it is the most important corner on the course, as it leads onto the fastest straightaway.
A wide entrance and a very late apex will allow a driver to be on the throttle earlier and take away most of the advantage that a higher-horsepower car has.
Many drivers apex this corner much too early, and, consequently are not able to get to full throttle nearly as early as they could be, giving away precious acceleration.

The lap that you passed him, you did a wide entry on Turn 6, and a good very late apex, then a good wide exit to the outer curb.
That allowed you to get on the throttle earlier than you had been doing, and that got you enough of a run on him to take advantage when he missed his braking point.

Turn 11 is a very difficult "late brake corner" as the preceding corners (8,9 and 10) are very fast, making it almost impossible to "get a run" on the car ahead.
But, a very good exit out of Turn 11 may allow a driver to get to the inside in Turn 12, allowing a pass to be made before Turn 1.

.

[winders]

Originally Posted by GUMBALL

For example:
.
Turn 6 (the carousel) is a difficult corner to make a pass on entry . . . BUT, it is the most important corner on the course, as it leads onto the fastest straightaway.
A wide entrance and a very late apex will allow a driver to be on the throttle earlier and take away most of the advantage that a higher-horsepower car has.
Many drivers apex this corner much too early, and, consequently are not able to get to full throttle nearly as early as they could be, giving away precious acceleration.

The lap that you passed him, you did a wide entry on Turn 6, and a good very late apex, then a good wide exit to the outer curb.
That allowed you to get on the throttle earlier than you had been doing, and that got you enough of a run on him to take advantage when he missed his braking point.

Turn 11 is a very difficult "late brake corner" as the preceding corners (8,9 and 10) are very fast, making it almost impossible to "get a run" on the car ahead.
But, a very good exit out of Turn 11 may allow a driver to get to the inside in Turn 12, allowing a pass to be made before Turn 1.

.

This tells me you know very little about racing at Sonoma Raceway.....

More passing happens in turn 11 than any other corner on the track. Why? Because people often get great runs out of 10 and are able to setup a pass. Also, even if you get the same run out of turn 10 as your adversary, you can make passes if the inside line is not protected by late braking. Turn 11 is the slowest corner on the track with the highest entry speed to minimum speed differential and is a hairpin...a prime passing zone. Since it is a hairpin, you can mess up the entry and exit all you want braking late as long you mess up the entry and exit for the car you are passing.

Turn 12 and turn 1 passes usually only happen between out of class cars with more horsepower than the cars they are passing or with much better driven in-class cars (usually lapping the car but sometimes when a faster car has to start farther back on the grid).

Also, I arrived at turn 7 closest to the Mustang on laps where I stayed on his ass through turn 6. The lap I passed the Mustang I was actually farther away from Mustang at the entry of turn 7 than any other preceeding lap. I was lucky that his mistake was big enough for me to get by.

[winders]

Originally Posted by GUMBALL

Turn 6 (the carousel) is a difficult corner to make a pass on entry . . . BUT, it is the most important corner on the course, as it leads onto the fastest straightaway.

Turn 6 does not lead onto the fastest “straight”. The run from the exit of turn 8A to the braking zone for turn 10 is faster. The run from the exit of turn 10 to the braking zone of turn 11 is faster. The run from the exit of turn 11 to the braking zone for the run up the hill to turn 2 is faster.

The fastest “straight” for me in my car is the run from the exit of turn 8A to the braking zone for turn 10.

[GUMBALL]

Originally Posted by winders

Turn 6 does not lead onto the fastest “straight”. The run from the exit of turn 8A to the braking zone for turn 10 is faster. The run from the exit of turn 10 to the braking zone of turn 11 is faster. The run from the exit of turn 11 to the braking zone for the run up the hill to turn 2 is faster.

The fastest “straight” for me in my car is the run from the exit of turn 8A to the braking zone for turn 10.

BUT . . . . the best passing section on the whole track is at Turn 7. Getting a good run out of Turn 8 is nice to discuss, but if it leads to a corner where outbraking someone is a VERY low percentage move, then that is a moot point isn't it??

And I already mentioned exiting Turn 11, but, again, unless you get a good enough exit out of that corner so that your pass can be made between Turn 12 and Turn 1, outbraking someone into Turn 2 is a marginal move.

In this discussion, the "fastest straightaway" may not be the highest miles-per-hour, but the most applicable to your overtaking maneuvers.

.

[GUMBALL]

Originally Posted by winders

This tells me you know very little about racing at Sonoma Raceway.....

More passing happens in turn 11 than any other corner on the track. Why? Because people often get great runs out of 10 and are able to setup a pass. Also, even if you get the same run out of turn 10 as your adversary, you can make passes if the inside line is not protected by late braking. Turn 11 is the slowest corner on the track with the highest entry speed to minimum speed differential and is a hairpin...a prime passing zone. Since it is a hairpin, you can mess up the entry and exit all you want braking late as long you mess up the entry and exit for the car you are passing.

Turn 12 and turn 1 passes usually only happen between out of class cars with more horsepower than the cars they are passing or with much better driven in-class cars (usually lapping the car but sometimes when a faster car has to start farther back on the grid).

Also, I arrived at turn 7 closest to the Mustang on laps where I stayed on his ass through turn 6. The lap I passed the Mustang I was actually farther away from Mustang at the entry of turn 7 than any other preceeding lap. I was lucky that his mistake was big enough for me to get by.

Most passing in Turn 11 is lapping slower cars. With cars of equal speed, it is a very difficult move. And if you do manage to outbrake someone into Turn 11, there is a high likelihood of you making a mistake and get re-passed before Turn 1.

Also, when you did pass the mustang into Turn 7, you were further back, BUT, because you did a better exit from Turn 6, you had a much better run on him than you had on several previous laps.

. . . . . . . and I have not only raced at Sears Point, I have Instructed at car club schools, as well as Driver Coached.

My intention, AGAIN, is not to criticize, but to make helpful suggestions, not only to you, but to anyone else watching these videos. I am not making these comments as a personal attack.

.

[winders]

Originally Posted by GUMBALL

BUT . . . . the best passing section on the whole track is at Turn 7. Getting a good run out of Turn 8 is nice to discuss, but if it leads to a corner where outbraking someone is a VERY low percentage move, then that is a moot point isn't it??

And I already mentioned exiting Turn 11, but, again, unless you get a good enough exit out of that corner so that your pass can be made between Turn 12 and Turn 1, outbraking someone into Turn 2 is a marginal move.

In this discussion, the "fastest straightaway" may not be the highest miles-per-hour, but the most applicable to your overtaking maneuvers.

The "fastest straightaway" usually means the fastest straightaway. That's not the exit of turn 6 to turn 7. People start changing definitions when they would otherwise have to take back what they said.

It's clear you read Alan Johnson's 1971 book "Driving in Competition" and espouse his ideas. He says the the most important corner on the track is the corner that leads onto the fastest straightaway. Well, that is a little simplistic and dated. Especially for a track like Sonoma Raceway.

I have already stated that turns 7 and 11 are the best places to overtake. For near equal cars, turn 11 is the most common passing place on the track. Turn 7 is the second most common place to pass.

I never suggested that passing someone going up the hill to turn 2 was a common thing. I've done it with a near equal car and it was dicey. It's easier when passing lapped traffic but still requires care.

[winders]

Originally Posted by GUMBALL

Most passing in Turn 11 is lapping slower cars. With cars of equal speed, it is a very difficult move. And if you do manage to outbrake someone into Turn 11, there is a high likelihood of you making a mistake and get re-passed before Turn 1.

Also, when you did pass the mustang into Turn 7, you were further back, BUT, because you did a better exit from Turn 6, you had a much better run on him than you had on several previous laps.

. . . . . . . and I have not only raced at Sears Point, I have Instructed at car club schools, as well as Driver Coached.

My intention, AGAIN, is not to criticize, but to make helpful suggestions, not only to you, but to anyone else watching these videos. I am not making these comments as a personal attack.

.

The most common place for near equal cars to pass at Sonoma Raceway is turn 11. It has the most drastic straight-line threshold braking zone on the track. It is also a hairpin which makes it harder repass with an over/under move. As I wrote previously, since it is a hairpin, you can mess up the entry and exit all you want braking late as long you mess up the entry and exit for the car you are passing.

Turn 7 is different from turn 11 in that you are not threshold braking as long or as hard. Also, even though it is a hairpin, there is more room to make the over/under move. Still, it is the second easiest place to pass at Sonoma Raceway.

I did not have a better run on the Mustang when I passed him. His mistake was large enough that I was able to get by him even though I was in a worse position than any of the previous laps. It was good fortune...not a great exit...that allowed that pass.

I've got 5000 laps around Sonoma Raceway in both motorcycles and cars. I instructed motorcycle racers at race schools there many times. I've won over 30 races at the track.

[GUMBALL]

My intent was constructive suggestions.
My intent was a couple of small things that you might improve on.

I am no more successful than dozens of others that I know and worked with, but, I have won races at a variety of tracks around the country, as well as Championships. . . . as a driver, as a Chief Mechanic as well as a spotter/drivers coach.

My intent was not to incite a "pi***ng" match with you.

Every fast driver I have ever known has welcomed another perspective as well as suggestions on how he might shave hundreths of a second off his lap time.

But, you appear to take any suggestion as a personal insult, which I find very confusing.

May I suggest that you watch your in-car videos more thoroughly.

.

[winders]

Originally Posted by GUMBALL

My intent was constructive suggestions.
My intent was a couple of small things that you might improve on.

I am no more successful than dozens of others that I know and worked with, but, I have won races at a variety of tracks around the country, as well as Championships. . . . as a driver, as a Chief Mechanic as well as a spotter/drivers coach.

My intent was not to incite a "pi***ng" match with you.

Every fast driver I have ever known has welcomed another perspective as well as suggestions on how he might shave hundreths of a second off his lap time.

But, you appear to take any suggestion as a personal insult.

May I suggest that you watch your in-car videos more thoroughly.

.

Two things....

1. I was not asking for driving advice or suggestions. Let me say that again: I was not asking for driving advice or suggestions. I posted the video for its entertainment value.

Most of the driving advice you have offered has been generic at best and could be found in any basic driving book. The rest of it has been incorrect. I have challenged what you said because generic advice does not apply in all situations on all tracks and all cars and some of what have said I know to be incorrect. I am not some DE novice that doesn't have a clue about lines.

For example, you said that "Many drivers apex this corner [turn 6] much too early". Well, there is a very good reason why people that race at Sonoma often do this: grip! Anything out from the left edge of the track is quite bumpy and most cars have a problem with grip out there. The turn is more than 180 degrees so it can be a lot faster overall taking a more inside line on entry and through the rest of the corner. Anything entry more than mid track will only cost you time that you won't gain all the back with a "better" apex that lets you got back on the throttle marginally sooner. I get the best exit speeds if I am on the inside yellow line by half way through the corner. I then let the car drift out to the left about a half a car width and then bring it back to curbing at exit.

Finally, the most critical part of the track is the exit of 7 all the way down to turn 11. Not the exit of turn 6....

2. I ask for and get great advice from just a few people. These people have helped me improve immensely over the years. I have learned that most people that don't know me or my car and offer unsolicited advice are not the people I should be paying attention to. I don't know who you are or what your credentials are...but I have not read anything that suggests I should be going to you for targeted advice for me and my situation.

I study my videos intently and look at my data. I have gotten to the point where I think it is time to hire a professional coach and to whom I will certainly pay close attention. That coach would likely be Thomas Merrill as he is familiar with the tracks I race on and is relatively familiar with me and my car.

[Emo993]

That was fun to watch Scott, great driving and thanks for sharing. Mark

[winders]

Originally Posted by ted

looking good Winders!

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Fun! Typical Mustang getting out and walking his car around the corners and then disappearing on the straights. It is clear you were turning faster laps but sometimes it's tough to get around those guys. I had my first weekend at Sonoma last December with Lemons and it is interesting to see various defensive lines. An important element in a field of 170 clown cars.

Originally Posted by Emo993

That was fun to watch Scott, great driving and thanks for sharing. Mark

Thanks, guys! It was fun racing. In fact, it was the most fun I have had in a race in a long time. I’d probably feel a bit differently if I had not made it by though….

[GUMBALL]

Originally Posted by winders

Two things....

1. I was not asking for driving advice or suggestions. Let me say that again: I was not asking for driving advice or suggestions. I posted the video for its entertainment value.

Once again, my intention was not to disparage your abilities as a driver, nor was it my intention to hurt your feelings.

Two things:

- EVERY fast driver that I have ever known would welcome suggestions regarding ANYTHING that might shave a few HUNDREDTHS of a second off their lap time. Suggestions solicited or not.

- NONE of the fast drivers I have ever known have taken suggestions as a personal insult. They have accepted these suggestions in context, considered them, and possibly experimented with them. NONE of these drivers have rejected them outright because "they know better". Probably because most of these drivers are experienced professionals.

And if I were to "refer", it would be to guys like Peter Krauss or Memo Gidley.

Finally . . . I promise that I will make no further comments.

In the future, I will merely share your videos with a few professionals, for its . . . "Entertainment value" . . . .

.

.

[winders]

One thing I have learned in my 30 years of competitive motorsports and shooting sports is that you can’t and shouldn’t take advice from just anyone. Especially when their advice is generic and regurgitated from a book. It is best to find a few (or even one) quality advisors that provide specific and insightful information tailored to the person and their situation. Listening to anyone and everyone is a mistake. I have not taken your advice as an insult. I just haven’t found it to be valuable and stated as much.

It’s funny that you mention Peter and Memo as I know both of them and both have complemented my driving…especially around Sonoma Raceway. I would hire Peter if he were on the west coast. Memo and I have talked about him coaching me. He felt that Thomas Merrill would know more about air-cooled 911s and would be a better choice. I know Johannes Van Overbeek and he would be an excellent coaching choice as well.

You see, I know that I have a lot to learn about driving…I am just very particular about who I learn from…because picking the right people is important.

I get the dig about showing my vids to “professionals”…presumably so they can have a laugh at my expense. Knock yourselves out….