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is your braking zone for 4 to scrub speed or to rotate the car (or both)?

Old 09-06-2004, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JackOlsen
I found another version, that an Alfa Romeo guy named Jim Hayes had done:



Here's mine with color.

Maybe I should be racing an Alfa?
I do like the Alfa 2.3.4.5.6.and 7 line.
Except for your 8 and 9 I'm all Alfa.

My line through T 7 (basically the back straight) is just stay to the left and keep the car as straight as you can.

I need a track fix....
Old 09-06-2004, 02:47 PM
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The Hayes line only differs significantly from mine in 4, 5, 7 and 8.

With turn 4, he rides the inside curb for the portion of the turn that's in front of the grandstands, and then early-apexes the flag station and swings out at the very top of the 4-5 straight. I have to admit, I don't get this as an approach. I like to get full on the gas from the 3 apex, and then (like him) head straight up the hill. But where he turns in early, I go to the top, to the marker at the outside edge of the track, and then lift (sometimes brake, depending on my speed and tires), rotate the car, and then turn the exit of 4, and the 4-5 straight, into a second full-throttle run. This pushes me to the outside of the 4-5 straight further down than him, where I turn right, drifting a little, until I'm straight enough to brake early, turn in, and be full on the gas again up the hill (and all the way to the exit of 8). With his method, I'd have to let up on the gas coming up the hill toward the balcony, modulate gas to hug the tight corner, then turn a fairly hard right once I hit the outside edge of the beginning of the 4-5 straight, and only get full throttle after I've straightened out from that early approach to the turn's second apex.

That line doesn't seem right to me, but if there are enough other drivers doing it, I'm willing to try it out at the next OTR event. One of the places on the track where I seem to always be able to reel people in is from the top of the omega to the entrance to 5. I'm pretty much full throttle through this, in a controlled drift. I think the other drivers are spending too much time turning, here.

With 5, it's a little hard to read what he means, because his map isn't accurate to the shape of the track. It looks like he brakes very early, and kind of tip-toes through the corner, hugging the inside curb again. With a sub-150-hp car, maybe this makes sense. But I like to go pretty fast from 4 to 5. I need a straight line to brake in, and I want a pretty straight shot up the hill, since the faster I can pick up speed here, the faster I can go into (and through) 8. I'm not at all prepared to say his line is wrong, even for a reasonably-powered car. It makes the track shorter than my line does. But deliberately early-apexing both 5 and 6 seems risky to me. The elevation changes of both those turns, with 5's slipperiness and 6's quick rise and drop, would make me worried that I was trading off too much speed for a shorter path.

With his exit from 7 and entrance to 8, if you're able to control the car holding the corner that tight to the right, then definitely do it -- you'll make the track shorter. But if you've nailed 5 and 6 well, with any kind of horsepower, I think you'll find that you need to enter a little wider, increasing the arc of your turn, then holding to the inside of the turn for the remainder of 8, until the 8-9 straight, where your car's going to get thrown out to the left.

With 8, he has the shape of the track wrong, again, so his line looks a little funny to me. It appears to suggest that you should kiss an apex of 8, and then head right out to the left edge of the track and ride along the perimeter until you enter 9. It's probably just because his map is wrong, but the wind alone can knock you a car width over to the left in 8, and the centrifugal forces are pushing your car that way constantly, which means riding the outside edge is going to be dangerous, at any significant speed. Plus, there are marbles out there, and you're making the track longer without any benefit.

Ted, I also stay to the left on the back straight. I show the curve to that line in my map to indicate to novices where they're going to get thrown to the left by the hill as they exit turn 6. I'll correct this in the graphic, though. There's no reason to turn to the right unless you're going to let someone past.
Old 09-06-2004, 04:31 PM
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FWIW the 4-5 line of the Alfa guy is definitely more like what I've been doing. Not to say that's quicker, but the 914 (and possibly the Alfas) rotate very differently in that type of situation than a 911. I know firsthand that kicking a 911 around 4 requires a different approach than a 914.

Other than that section I will make it a point to print out this thread and bring it with me to the track as a reference next time!!!
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Old 09-06-2004, 10:56 PM
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Shortest way around the track. Yep, that's good for cars/karts with lack of hp.



This would be a good line, IMHO, for one such car, such as the 4 cyl 914 I had.

Also, I forgot to mention that the enduro karts of my era had no front brakes. The year I retired they required a dual system to be installed, whether by adding a 2nd brake to the live rear axle, or front brakes. I never drove with front brakes, so I could never brake and turn, even the slightest steering angle could cause a spin. This ceratainly had a effect on the line needed. The map here is the line I used except for the wide line in 8/9.

Now we only lifted twice on a full lap. Just enough for a tap on the brakes into 3 and a little more agressive braking (in a straight line) going down the hill towards 5.

Jack, if you can do 4 the way you say, I really need to learn this all over again. Remodel at the house was Christened today, so now I can start installing some track equipment. Then, I will be out for some lessons.
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Old 09-06-2004, 11:00 PM
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I definately don't agree with the Alpha line in 5. I think hugging that inside corner that long would be a real waste of time. It's hard to compare his line through 8 because the radius of his map is completely different with a much larger flat spot between 8 and 9. I do use his line through 2, keeping a constant radius and even throttle about 8 feet off the inside and then pulling in for one late apex.
Old 09-07-2004, 07:38 AM
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Here's the latest, with some alternatives tacked on:

Old 09-07-2004, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drew365
I definately don't agree with the Alpha line in 5. I think hugging that inside corner that long would be a real waste of time.
It's a momentum line, useing the downhill area in T 5 and negotiating the track out with good grip and lower hp allows the slower car to carry more speed from T5 through T8.

Nice map Jack. When racing I enjoy running off line at Big Willow too. As most know during practice sessions most racers try to practice everything but the time trail line.

If thats a DE map why not add the designated passing areas too?
Old 09-07-2004, 05:02 PM
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That's a good idea. My thinking with this map is to do a poster-size version for Open Track Racing's events. I think when you're first learning a track, it's nice to have a reference visual you can come back and check out between sessions.

Working on it has been good for me, too. There are about half a dozen variations I want to try out the next time I'm there.

I'm thinking of sneaking in on one of their open testing Fridays, if the temps come down.
Old 09-07-2004, 05:07 PM
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Willow Springs looks like a lot of fun. It's neat to analyze the line. How long of a course is it? I have had fun this year at Watkins Glen in NY, a 3.4 mile course with 100 ft of elevation change and 11 corners. I also ran at Mt Tremblant in Canada, a 2.65 mile corse with great elevation changes too, and 15 turns. I need to do the same kind of analysis. It is very helpful.
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Old 09-07-2004, 05:38 PM
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Bailey -

Here's an example of a 'do as I say, not as I do' couple of laps. I'm off by as much as two car lengths for a lot of it, partly because I'm talking with a passenger (and partly because there's a wounded Viper on the track). The good thing about it is that the camera is mounted on the car's wing, which lets you see the track itself a little better. It's a 9 meg Quicktime movie.

Here's another one, where I'm chasing Ted unsuccessfully. I don't have my rear wing in this clip, but that's really not a good excuse.

WSIR is a 2.5 mile course where a good driver will average over 100 mph over the duration of the course.

For perspective, this is looking at turn 4 (the tightest, slowest turn on the track) from above.

Old 09-07-2004, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bailey
Willow Springs looks like a lot of fun. It's neat to analyze the line. How long of a course is it? I have had fun this year at Watkins Glen in NY, a 3.4 mile course with 100 ft of elevation change and 11 corners. I also ran at Mt Tremblant in Canada, a 2.65 mile corse with great elevation changes too, and 15 turns. I need to do the same kind of analysis. It is very helpful.
Willow is a lot of fun and very fast too. Jack and I run about the same 1:31 lap times. By no means track records but still these lap times compute to an average lap speed of 100mph. Maintaining momentum helps.

I like the longer tracks like the ones you mentined. At least with the longer tracks you feel like you are going somewhere.
If I have to go in circles let them be very big ones.
Old 09-07-2004, 06:44 PM
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Jack and Ted. I am going to try to post a pic of my car.

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Old 09-07-2004, 07:02 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bailey
[B]Jack and Ted. I am going to try to post a pic of my car.

Looks hard core Bailey! Paint looks fresh too.
What are the specs on it? Is it street legal?
More pics please.
Old 09-07-2004, 11:40 PM
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For some reason, I'm getting X's for Bailey's picture. Here it is again:

Old 09-07-2004, 11:41 PM
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I don't hug the inside of 5 as tight as shown on the "Alfa" map, but as Ted mentioned, a tight and early line does seem to allow for the lower HP cars to get full on the throttle as soon as possible; in fact well before that early apex. Since you transition from downhill & braking to an uphill section at that point, momentum is crucial. The track is wide enough there that a lower-powered car is at WOT all the way from the early turn-in for 5 until the entry to 9! (or should be, at least.)
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:58 PM
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The latest, with an alternate path through 4 and into 5.

Old 09-08-2004, 01:20 PM
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Well after watching the evolution of "the line" I would have to say you got the best of both worlds now Jack. One for the heavier cars and one for the lite weights.

Only place I consistantly differ from your "std line" is T7 and T8. I was taught (in car) by our own MikeyG to make one's line as straight as possible b'tween T6 & T8....which has one literally skimming the left side at T7, and entering T8 slightly wider than your Lt wgt. line.....keeping about 2 ft b'wteen the rt. side of the car and the inside of T8.....at about 120 mph.
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RSupdate
I was taught (in car) by our own MikeyG to make one's line as straight as possible b'tween T6 & T8....which has one literally skimming the left side at T7, and entering T8 slightly wider than your Lt wgt. line.
Well, the line in my drawing from the exit of 6 through 7 is not very meaningful. I have it go wide left out of 6 to illustrate the way the car gets thrown from the elevation drop as you exit 6. I think it makes sense to enter wide into 8, and then cut in to where you hug the inside of the track as close as you're comfortable with.

In this clip you can see that Mike apexes just a tiny bit later than I do at 1 and 8, but that we're basically driving the same line. Problem is, he does it faster than me.
Old 09-08-2004, 03:09 PM
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Been lurking for a while, this is my first post. I agree more with the Alpha line (not completely,) but have some suggestions. First, I don't have a ton of rear engine experience, but I haven't seen a car do quicker segment times around the omega by going all the way left at 4. (Doesn't mean it's wrong, just my experience.) I would suggest that half track is the farthest left you need to go unless the car just won't rotate. You can still run WOT between the apex of 3 and the 1st apex of 4, then lift to rotate following about 1/2 track, balance the throttle for a second until you can almost see the 2nd apex, then lift and rotate again to hit the far side of the 2nd apex curbs near the corner station, at which point you can go WOT until the braking point for 5 (and using a lot of track out.) Also, not an issue during DE's, but going wide in 4 creates a great passing opportunity for a following car in a race. Once a car gets inside at the top of the omega, the outside car is stuck in the marbles, making it really hard to stay side by side until 5 to complete a re-pass.

In 5, the real key is car setup. If you can dial the suspension in to where you don't need to lift for 6, then you can keep bringing the apex to 5 earlier and earlier until you either use all the track out after 5 (to the right) or need to lift for 6. I had a 500 hp, 2900 pound Vette that still went WOT from the apex of 5 all the way over 6 while entering on the far right over the hump. Lots of shock development to get there, but it chopped huge chunks of time off the total lap time. Also a little scary almost running out of track on the downside of 6 every lap, but it was fast. My Cobra (replica), however, couldn't get anywhere close to WOT over 6, so I needed to run the already discussed late apex from 5 in order to straighten out the run to 6 as much as possible. So, the line from 5 to 6 appears to be highly car dependent, although with some tuning, I believe lots of time can be gained here.

In 2, some people like the dotted line on the Alha chart, with a very early first apex (also great defense or offense against the more traditional ine.) You can take this line with little or no braking, even in a high hp car since the banking will catch any slide you can create on entry. The car can drift past the first apex, once the banking catches the drift, you can lift to rotate and joing the traditional line well in advance of needing to go WOT for the traditional late apex at exit.

Just my humble suggestions, hope I'm not too opinionated for a first post newbie.

Mike

Old 09-08-2004, 07:42 PM
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