Which AFFF system to buy

[cstreit]

That crash video from the Japan GT race convinced me it's time to upgrade my inadequate fire system in the racecar to AFFF.

I see that both SPA and FireCharger offer comparable systems at comparable prices... Had anyone experience with the pros and cons of each?

I also see that they only come with 2 nozzles which seems inadequate to me. I would think at least 4. One for the fuel cell, two for the engine compartment (thinking this is where most fires originate commonly) and one for my feet/lower body area. Does this sound like a plan?

I could use some input.

Thanks

[addictionMS]

I have a standard halon system three nozzles, I have only once seen one of these fired and it was in our RX7 during an electrical fire, slowed the burn but the car filled with smoke. It was omstly a smoke fire and red hot wire kind of fire so not sure halon could do much but prevent flames which it did.

remember the primary goal is to save the driver, so focus on that. Eliminate things that can burn in your space, I know I have, I only have the oil and the fuel running through the cockpit

Jim

[jase007]

I only have the oil and the fuel running through the cockpit

Funny.

I / we do the same. Try to eliminate all combustables in the cockpit. On my tub Halon, 1 above fuel cell, 1 on roll cage knee bar (pointed midsection / footwell of driver), and 1 in engine bay pointing down. [BTW: learned recently after refinishing a couple of race buckets that 99 if not 100% of them don't have nomex covers. Not sure if that is enturely true though...still investigating]

The other thing to remember is for those that have had systems for a while ... check to see if the guage on the bottle still shows pressure / charged. Hate to hit that big red fire knob and have nothing (very little) happen.

Jason

p.s. Chris: sorry I missed your MD pub-crawl ... life got in the way. Catch you next time.

[cstreit]

Very good points guys...

Will HALON even work as effectively as AFFF in such a large area? That's one of the reasons I was thinking AFFF, plus it seems like Halon is "out of favor?"

Do you think this is a real progression or fad?

Jase, I'm was wondering what happened. Without you there I could tell all sorts of racing "tall tales" and not get caught. I'm out there every 2-3 months so we'll get another shot!

[jluetjen]

Chris -- Halon is "out of favor" because it is no longer being manufactured due to the damage it causes to the ozone layer. If you have a system now which is up to weight (don't worry about the pressure -- that is just a quick test, weight is the key measurement), then it is fine. Do you have a 5 lb system or a 10 lb system right now. If you have a 5 lb system, moving to any sort of a 10 lb system would be an upgrade. But to replace a X lb Halon system with a comparably sized AFFF system would just be a change, not necessarily an upgrade.

[304065]

Chris,

I have the Safety Devices AFFF system which is a 2.25 liter size. I bought it from Bob Kakascik at Stable Energies, who has a web site at: http://www.stableenergies.com/home.asp

The system consists of a large red bottle which is pressurized with N2 at 9 Bar. There's a small peanut gauge that allows you to verify the pressure.

Installing it took about a day. The thing to remember about the liquid is that it will follow the path of least resistance, so those areas you want the most coverage on should get the larger diameter tubes and be directly downstream of the bottle. For example, I have the bottle mounted on the access door for the shift coupler, and the main hose runs forward to a discharger under my seat, basically between the drivers legs. (Remember what I said about put the main discharger on your most important thing!) Then there's a "Wye" fitting with one branch going forward to a discharger over the fuel cell, and the other mounted on the shock tower over the stacks.

The firing button is just to the right of the steering column, and it's a protected electric button. The system is triggered by a 9V battery in a small box which I have mounted to the glovebox door. Basically, there's a pyrotechnic squib in the neck of the bottle- you hit the button and the squib burns through and lets the foam out. There are three positions on the firing box- off, test (verifies continuity of the switch) and arm. On the grid, I arm the box.

No system offers perfect protection, but I found this easy to install. Like insurance, it's a waste of money . . . if you're lucky.

[jpachard]

I bought the firecharger system and am very happy with it. One of the advantages is that it's user rechageable(50.00 +/-). Having your fire system discharge and not being able to fix it yourself is a pain(don't ask!!) The kits are very well put together and I will be installing them in my client's cars

Cheers, James

[cstreit]

John (leutjen)

I'm embarrassed to say that I have a small handheld only right now. I want a 'system'

[ErVikingo]

Chris, I also have the Safety Devices AFFF system from Stable Energies. One of the benefits is that it will discharge in any position (if you rollover, ...) since it is pressurized with some type of bladder (if I remember correctly).

I have the largest bottle they sold with 4 nozzles. 2 in engine compartment and one each in the cockpit (between my legs) and front trunk.

The system is expensive but.......

[jluetjen]

OK Chris. Then an AFFF system would be a great update!

Keep in mind that a 2.25 liter AFFF system is roughly equivalent to a 5 lb Halon system and is the minimum size allowed in non-showroom stock cars by the SCCA. Given the size of the car (compared to formula cars an such), the bigger production and GT cars it is often recommended to go one size larger. In fact GT1 cars are required to a 10 lb Halon system. So you might want to consider a 3.375 liter system so that you have enough foam to go around.

[cstreit]

John,

That's what I was thinking as well. I think that the smaller one wouldn't effectively support more than 2-3 nozzles...

[Plavan]

Chris,
I have the Firecharger system. I like it. Easy to install. I have 2 nozzles, one pointed at my feet the other in the engine compartment. I think if you get the bigger model you may be able to have more nozzles (not sure).

[makaio]

Since some of you know I put fires out for a living, I'll give you my 2 cents.

AFFF is much better for putting out combustible (oil, grease, diesel fuel) or flammable liquid (gasoline) fires than Halon. Most fires involving race cars are caused by spilling or leaking fuel, from a crash, leaking fitting, whatever.

AFFF does not displace Oxygen in the imediate area when extinguishing a fire, so there's one less thing to worry about when your up-side down, trying to get out of a burning race car.

As for which system I like better, I like the fire charger. The main reasons are it's serviceable by owner, and you don't have to annualy or bi-annualy charge it. Before they moved the company, I stopped by and checked out their set-up, and I really like it.

[cstreit]

I understand they can freeze though, I'll have to make sure I remove it for winter...

THe firecharger is what I'm leaning toward.

[makaio]

Yes they can. I forgot you live in an area that freezes. You take the little things for granted when it's 60 degrees F. and Sunny in the middle of December.

[armandodiaz]

I'll be ordering this shortly:

http://safecraft.com/product_page_detail.asp?ProductID=81&ProductCatID=1&ProductSubCatID=2&menu=&Search=

I just spoke with them, it comes with 2 nozzle but you can order a 3rd for $10. Although they warned me that 3 nozzles on a 5lb bottle is pushing it.

There is a pretty good write up on their website about the different agents.

[makaio]

Armando, that is a interesting looking set-up. How is it pressurized?

[armandodiaz]

I don't have the instructions on it yet. It is a DIY refill. From reading other manufactures instructions it is a concentrated compound that gets mixed with water then pressurized via an air valve. Refills estimates are $50. Halon alone is $26lb plus labor and parts(new head, oring).

[makaio]

Sounds cool!

[armandodiaz]

The 10lb is only about $30 more and it already comes with a 3rd nozzle. So really it's only $20 more. Where I want to mount it is small so I need to be sure it'll fit first. I'm trying to make space up front for everything...
Fuel cell, Fire system, battery, oil tank. I'm going to have to get creative with space.