belts-harness

billyboy · 09-26-2005, 06:49 PM

I am just starting to try and figure this end of my project out. I have installed an rollbar and now am wondering about harnesses. I see a 5 point for sale here on the parts board and see that it's dated. How long are they good for or does it depend on what you are doing. i want to do DE and autocross. I have been looking at Kirkey roadrace seats also, an comments on that would be appreciated. thanks

Jeff Alton · 09-26-2005, 07:07 PM

For DE and autocross the dating is not as much of an issue. They are probably in better shape than the factory belts (37yrs old) in your car. The kirky is a good seat. Widebody911 has one in his car and I am sure others do as well. A search should find the thread where he puts it in the car. I went with 6 points instead of fives, but fives are certailnly fine and better than 4's. There is much debate about 5 vs 6 but I think that a sub belt is better than none.

Sounds like a fun car you have there!

Jeff

Cory M · 08:56 AM

Most manufacturers will reweb the belts for a much lower price than a new set of belts. They reuse the hardware and replace the nylon. I paid $50 each to have mine rewebbed (Autopower). This is something you should consider if you think you'd like to run time-trials or racing with POC or PCA in the future (both require in-date belts). It is probably easier to just buy new belts, the latch style belts from M&R, Crowe, Simpson, and Autopower are pretty cheap.

The dating system depends on the group, generally 2-5 years, look up the club rules online.

billyboy · 09-27-2005, 09:27 AM

Thanks for the replies, I can definitely see the point of getting something with the max. legal life rather than trying to save a couple of bucks. Is there a difference on the type of belts?By that I mean the mounting or do they all mount to the factory mounts or do some attach to the roll bar? I understand that the sub belt or belts require attaching through the floor to a reinforced spot.

earlyapex · 09-27-2005, 11:12 AM

Bill, I'm assuming that you will not be driving the car much on the road except maybe to and from an event. That said, 6-point harnesses seam to be the trend. Are they safer? I personally haven't sean the data to support this move from 5-points. I have a Schroth 5-point harness with 3" belts. The sub-belt is attached to the floor. The lap belts are attached to the stock mounting points on the floor and the shoulder belts are attached to the roll cage. You need to make sure that you follow the manufacturer's recommendations regarding attachment points and position/angle of the belts relative to the driver. I am switching to a 2" lap belt in the future as the 3" belts do not allow me to tighten the belts adequately across my hips (I'm pretty short and light.).

I've got Recaro SPG seat that I find very comfortable although I could use more side support. The Kirkey seats that I've sean look like they are well designed and made. You should look at the rules of the organizations that you will run with regarding aluminum seats and whether a seat back brace will be required. There are many seat options out there and your choice should depend on comfort level and budget, assuming you will not be racing (think HANS).

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

www.crowenterprizes.com

Assuming your rollbar has a cross bar, the shoulder harnesses wrap/attach directly to that. Sub goes through the floor with at least a large fender washer as reinforcement, but better with a plate backing. Lap belts can mount to existing belt points...I use an eyebolt and clip-in lap belts so i still have my original seatbelts.

cbeers · 09-27-2005, 12:32 PM

Hey Bill,

no affiliation, just ran across it

-Chris

http://www.craigslist.com/eby/pts/99895565.html

billyboy · 09-27-2005, 12:54 PM

Thanks, Chris, I'm contacting him now. And thanks everyone else for the helpful instructions.

gchappel · 09-27-2005, 02:14 PM

SCCA requires belts be replaced every 2 years.
They are requiring 6 or 7 point harnesses soon, either 06 or 07. Scca had some data that 6points were safer than 5- I read parts of the paper but can't place my hands on it right now, IF I remember correctly 5 points caused more spinal compression than 6.
Old farts rule of thumb- don't buy used belts unless you are sure of their history- I am told you need to replace belts after any wreck as they will have stretched. Check your install carefully and have one of the race gurus go over your install in your car- the install is important.
gary

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

You want six points. You want to mount the subs as shown below. (Yes, it's from the Miata I tracked last year.) Mount the subs this way even if you have race seats. Please note you don't want as much space between the two-slot adapter, and the clip-in plate, as shown here. You want as little space between them as possible.

You can mount the subs to the same eye-bolts as the lap belts, as shown.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

I do not understand how that is "safer" than a 5 pt with the sub coming through the base of the seat. Properly tensioned you are constricting your thighs, right? Plus you are also linking multiple belts to a single bolt.

patkeefe · 09-27-2005, 07:42 PM

I also have Crow Enterprizes five point belts (very nice setup, and a good price) and a DAS Sport bar. I don't fully understand the purpose of the six point either. Isn't the crotch strap to keep the lap belts from riding up, and you from submarining out? How does a six point accomplish this, on a common mount with the lap belts?
Pat

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

Quote:

I do not understand how that is "safer" than a 5 pt with the sub coming through the base of the seat.

It does a much better job of keeping your hips back, and the lap belts down, when a collision occurs. Also, the triangulation the dual subs provide is a big advantage in cases of side and off-center impacts,

Quote:

Properly tensioned you are constricting your thighs, right?

That's what my first thought was too. But it is not constricting at all. Even the "boys" don't get smashed as bad as you'd think. I think its much more comfortable than a single sub.

Quote:

Plus you are also linking multiple belts to a single bolt.

This is a non-issue. The SCCA GCR explicitly states that it’s perfectly acceptable for dual subs and the lap belts to share the same bolts. On the other hand, the SCCA is phasing out single subs.

Bottom line: You really need to try this setup. You'll like it better.

Jeff Alton · 09-28-2005, 07:39 AM

When you mount the sub straps on a six point, they should go through the seat and not mount to the same points as the lap belts. The should be mounted similar to where you would place the sub strap on a 5 point. At least that is what the literature that came with my Schroth belts said......

CHeers,

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

Quote:

When you mount the sub straps on a six point, they should go through the seat and not mount to the same points as the lap belts. The should be mounted similar to where you would place the sub strap on a 5 point. At least that is what the literature that came with my Schroth belts said

With all due respect to Schroth, this will result in a 5-point system that happens to have a double-looped sub. For one thing, you loose the triangulation effect of the dual subs.

The *ideal* set up is to use a seat with dual sub openings expressly made for a six point system . The subs should mount at an angle of 20 degrees behind the intersection of the Chest Line and the lap belt buckle. Mounts should be approximately 8 to 12 inches apart, and as close to the body as possible. (This applies to the upright seating found in Sedan type cars.) Here is a diagram of the "perfect" upright six-point install off the Simpson site...

That said, running the subs over the seats and to the lap-belt mounts is safer than a five-point, is expressly defined in the SCCA GCR, works with virtually all seats, and is a pretty easy install.

But you don't need to blindly trust me. More information is available in the SCCA GCR (which can be downloaded for free, and other sites like Simpson's

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Rob, I tried the 6pt as you have it and did *not* like it at all. I did switch to a slotted seat and moved my sub mount point underneath the seat. I would consider a setup as shown above (if I go to a different double-slot seat).

Jeff Alton · 07:34 PM

Rob, what am I missing. That pic shows what I was trying to describe and is how mine are installed. ALso, what advantage would a seat with two slots have ove one with a wide slot to accomodate the dual belts?

CHeers

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

Quote:

Rob, what am I missing?

You originally did not mention 'one wideslot to accommodate the dual belts.' Based on the content of your earlier post, I surmised you'd mounted the dual subs just like someone would a single sub.

Now that you've clarified, I believe you're not missing anything.

The point is to buy a six point harness.

Six-point harnesses are safer than five-point harnesses.
Six-point harnesses with the subs run over the seat sides are safer than five-point harnesses.
The SCCA is phasing out five point harnesses

Dixie · Dixie's Garage

I apologize to everyone if I sound nit-picky....

As an instructor, I’m very wary of harness installations. I’m simply not willing to risk my life in a car with improperly installed belts. And I’ve seen lots, and lots, of installs that were dangerous.

And no, I don’t care if a car made it through tech. It only passed because tech doesn’t check harnesses.