Torsion bars for AX & track days?

[CMDR Perry]

I autocross now and plan to do some track days in 2007.

Question #1; What size torsion bars are recommended for my 911SC that is also driven on the street? #2, does anyone make poly bushings for the factory sway bars? #3 A source for 8 and 9 by 16 inch steel wheels?

Thanks and goodnight.

[coloradoporsche]

#1: 22/28
#2: I don't know
#3:http://www.motomotions.com/wheels/index.htm

[T-Bone911]

1. running 22 and 27 on my daily driver and DE car. nice on the street (AC and CD) but might have gone a little stiffer.
Why steel wheels?

[CMDR Perry]

Thanks T-bone, I pulled my AC and shed 62 lbs. The 9 inch Fuchs are expensive and hard to find. I noticed JeffStev runs steel wheels on his SC race-car. I don't want to risk using cast aftermarket alloy wheels. I also thought the steel wheels would be safe for tire swaps at the local Discount tire store.

[Ducman]

Another vote for 22/28

[nostatic]

Are you going to race/run with a particular organization? If so, look at their GCRs and figure out what class you want to run in and build towards that. t-bars are one part of the system. I think if you're going to do it, you should also look at your sways, all bushings, revalved shocks, etc. And the tire/wheel combo. I have 23/31 on my SC and find it fine on the street...but I'm a glutton for punishment (so says my ex).

If you're changing wheels, why stay with 16"?

[rennch]

I have 4 16 X 7's for sale, FWIW.

[CMDR Perry]

Nostatic, I am now thinking of selling the car. Before kids I raced SCCA showroom stock in a Honda and that was expensive. With the 911 the cost to prep it just for DE track days is now close to $4,000.00. A pro engine/ transmission rebuild will add another $14 large and then it will be RSR body and paint time. Please tell me why I have already invested $20K in a 27 year old German sports car that is slower than all Miata's at local autocross events.

Financially I would be better off selling it and buying a used Z06. Thanks for the input.

[Az911]

Originally posted by CMDR Perry
Thanks T-bone, I pulled my AC and shed 62 lbs. The 9 inch Fuchs are expensive and hard to find. I noticed JeffStev runs steel wheels on his SC race-car. I don't want to risk using cast aftermarket alloy wheels. I also thought the steel wheels would be safe for tire swaps at the local Discount tire store.

9inch fuchs expensive yes, rare no, you can still buy them brand new from Porsche.

[Ducman]

Originally posted by CMDR Perry
Nostatic, I am now thinking of selling the car. Before kids I raced SCCA showroom stock in a Honda and that was expensive. With the 911 the cost to prep it just for DE track days is now close to $4,000.00. A pro engine/ transmission rebuild will add another $14 large and then it will be RSR body and paint time. Please tell me why I have already invested $20K in a 27 year old German sports car that is slower than all Miata's at local autocross events.

Financially I would be better off selling it and buying a used Z06. Thanks for the input.

Every 6 months the off-the-showroom specs get better.......and 6 months later what was hot is now just another soulless cage.

You don't need to spend a penny to have 10 times more fun than any Miata owner - and less than you think to beat them or the Z06

[CMDR Perry]

Ducman, I realize the 911SC is better suited to a longer track like BIR or Road America and I still am learning how to drive the car but the clock does not lie. There are two local PCA 911 racers with fully prepped cars and good skill that routinely get beat by the C stock Miatae. The car is great fun to drive on the open road but a real disappointment in local cone competition. The car did respond nicely to a Bursch exhaust change and being lowered but is still below my expectations.

Why Ducati and not a BMW motorcycle?

[RobSime]

Originally posted by CMDR Perry
Ducman, I realize the 911SC is better suited to a longer track like BIR or Road America and I still am learning how to drive the car but the clock does not lie. There are two local PCA 911 racers with fully prepped cars and good skill that routinely get beat by the C stock Miatae. The car is great fun to drive on the open road but a real disappointment in local cone competition. The car did respond nicely to a Bursch exhaust change and being lowered but is still below my expectations.

Why Ducati and not a BMW motorcycle?

Who is driving that Miata?

[CMDR Perry]

Is this the same Mr. Sime that used drive a red Z car? Randy Wiliams and Mike Brausen are the local Miata C Stock hot shoes, there are literally dozens of them in Minnesota. We get 150 cars at some events now and the CSP Miata's compete for FTD.

[Ducman]

Originally posted by CMDR Perry
Ducman, I realize the 911SC is better suited to a longer track like BIR or Road America and I still am learning how to drive the car but the clock does not lie. There are two local PCA 911 racers with fully prepped cars and good skill that routinely get beat by the C stock Miatae. The car is great fun to drive on the open road but a real disappointment in local cone competition. The car did respond nicely to a Bursch exhaust change and being lowered but is still below my expectations.

Why Ducati and not a BMW motorcycle?

IMO - Casual drivers will usually do better in easier to drive cars - like a Miata. Truly the best drivers will prevail when teamed with the most prepared cars whatever the brand. But having a top prepared car is an endless excise and $$$. To me a 911 has amazing ability if you really get into it - and its personality is so rewarding to do so.

Unless you intend to make a career out of it - just go out and have fun.

All that being said I do have what I think is a fairly hot auto-x set-up:

2.7
Mahle RS pistons and cylinders
S cams
Ported/polished heads
Webers
Orignal '74 style headers and Bursch (soon to be M&K)
Lightweight clutch and flywheel
7:31
15" 7x8
22/28 tbars
21/21 sways

I've gotten beaten by a Miata - but only one driven by a top ranked driver.

BTW - BMWs are nice motorcycles, but in similar fashion to a Porsche, in the 2 wheeled sport world there is really only one that matters.

[nostatic]

I've been trying to figure out how to use my 15K post, and this is as good as any, seeing how I came here 5+ years ago never having run a competitive lap in my life, and now am so far down the slippery slope that it isn't funny. Well, ok...maybe marginally funny.

There are a couple of issues at play, and it really depends on what is important to you. I offer no value judgement on what is "better" or "right", but merely my take on things and why I now campaign my '79 911SC.

My love for the marquee goes back to high school. My water polo coach had a silver 914/2.0, and another coach had an orange 914. And of course I saw the occasional 911, especially when I would go surfing in La Jolla. My first driving was in a VW-pan dune buggy in the desert, and then at 16, a '67 VW Bug. A 911-in-training. I went through hell and back in that car. Eventually it left the driveway for a Toyota p/u, but the air-cooled, rear-engine feel/sights/smells/sounds were in my blood.

Fast forward to a point where I had a decent career, and not-so-decent marriage, and a desire to finally return to my roots, although a bit upscale. My first 911 was a fabled tale here at Pelican, and I shed her quickly due to domestic strife. But you can't keep an air-cooled guy down, so soon thereafter I had my beautiful '79 911SC with just under 41K miles sitting in the garage. Much to the chagrin of the wife (now ex).

That car became my daily driver (good bye 4-runner with the 4-banger) for the next two years. Every day and night in LA traffic. Yes, the AC sucked and I sweated. Yes, the clutch was heavy in stop-and-stop traffic. No matter. It spoke to me. It was/is a time machine. Every morning when the flat 6 whined and I smelled the oil I was home.

Fast forward to a December night coming home from a gig. Some drunk b*tch in an SUV blew out the K-rail on the 10 fwy and I was the 2nd car into the debris field. *bang*. The car was no longer pristine. She was seriously wounded. So off she went to TRE for a fixing (not covered by insurance). But I knew she would never be the same. The beauty of life is that it *never* is the same. And that can be a great thing.

At some point along the way some of the reprobates here (most notably Tyson and Jack) goaded me into taking her to the track. I have to admit after my first day at Willow I was on the fence. Yes, there was something compelling and exciting about tracking the car, but frankly I was also scared *****less. I've never been a big terminal-velocity guy, and am mostly risk averse (even though I have/had some other sports that some consider extreme like surfing and racing bicycles). So I ended up doing a second event, and it was more intruiging, but still there was a healthy dose of fear. Then I did a driver's clinic with POC and on the skid pad, experiencing my first throttle steering, the heavens opened up. I got it. I could make the car dance. It wasn't pretty (yet) and was often awkward and out of sorts, but every once in awhile it was magic. That was it. Game over.

So down the slippery slope she goes. Now I'm time trialing and finishing up my race license, as well as instructing newbies. Sure, I've dumped money into the car. But she is still a time machine. I'm sure tracking a Miata would give me grins, but it wouldn't transport me back to 1979. And I also could not beat the Miata over and over and have it coming back for more like the 911 does. Plus, the 911 has "character." And trailing throttle over-steer is a feature, not a bug. I still miss the mark more times than I hit it, but when the 911 is dancing, it is unlike anything else I've experienced. And once I did a race clinic and finished my first w2w event, I was just dumbstruck with joy. No, I didn't "win." It didn't matter. I wasn't perfect. It didn't matter. For those 15 laps I was dancing with one of the true icons of automotive history. No, she is not the fastest car out there. Or the cheapest. But she is tough, and she is mine. I'm sure she'll break some day soon, and I'll have to fix her again. And that's fine. I owe that to her for all the car gives back to me.

So there ya go. And as I said, no value judgement. Very few people feel the way I do about their 911. To many, it is just a car. A track toy. A tool. To me, it is much more. It is a time machine. And freedom. And joy. And sorrow. In other words, a little bit of everything wrapped up in metal, glass, rubber, gas and oil. A place to get it right and have a dance at the edge. And if you don't get it right, there is always the next lap...

[Jim Richards]

Dude, all he wanted to know about was t-bars, bushings and wheels.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Dude, all he wanted to know about was t-bars, bushings and wheels.

as in much of life, there is more to it than meets the eye...

[CMDR Perry]

Thanks to everyone for their input on 911 SC chassis set-up and life Zen. I agree with Ducman that some cars are easier to drive fast right away. The Opel Manta's of the 1970's were known for this trait. I won my first Autocross in a 1975 Opel 1900 sedan. I know I need development as a Porsche driver but I also need better tires. Please advise, the local 911 drivers all use Hoosiers. In the past I preferred Yokohama's.

[nostatic]

Depends on your experience/skill level. If you are a relative newbie to 911s, I'd suggest running street tires. Bridgestone SO-3s are a "classic."

[rennch]

Pick up a set of Falken Azenis...they are a true street/race compromise. Much faster than "regular" street tires at an autocross...especially a PCA autocross.