914/6 vs 911

[jluetjen]

Admittedly the mid-engine layout has benefits when it comes to cornering performance. But I think this example demonstrates the underlying 911 leit motif -- engineering and development overcoming what should fundamentally be a sub-optimal layout.

To put it differently, I can fit my wife, 2 kids and some luggage in a 911 2.0 and still go almost as fast as a 914-6, and significantly faster then just about any other 2 liter car with a comparable load on a similar circuit.

[msgsobe]

thanks guys for all the input. I'm no engineer, i just know what feels right, and i was WAY more confident in the 914/6..it may be my background, as i cut my teeth in Formula Ford and Formula Continental.

[iamchappy]

You dont see this guy getting passed by a 911 very often.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ked911

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6K78YKA9UE&feature=related

[Flieger]

It is hard to compare that car to a 911. To get a comparison of purely the chassis configuration, one must use cars of similar power and weight with similar tires. Then the drivers must also be of similar skill (a hard thing to measure). Only after addressing these issues can one make a comparison of the basic 911 and 914 chassis designs.

[38D]

Originally Posted by iamchappy

You dont see this guy getting passed by a 911 very often.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ked911

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6K78YKA9UE&feature=related

Comparing Keith to any other driver is absurd. Keith was on of the fastest guys at PCA races for many, many years. He would regularly beats cars that were 2 and 3 classes higher (he was in the old GT4R). The car was a 2.8L chop top 914. ~300hp and 2000lbs w/driver. He ran 16" goodyear slicks...I think it was 10" in the front and 12" in the rear. I saw Keith recent at the Lime Rock race and he's building a new car to come back & race.

[J P Stein]

Ayup, you don't want to compare any race prepped 914 to an equally prepped 911.....it just ain't fair.

[38D]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Ayup, you don't want to compare any race prepped 914 to an equally prepped 911.....it just ain't fair.

It's about the driver not the car. There are several extremely good 911 drivers in GT3R now (Chris Musante for example) that now run faster time than Keith did.

[tjtryon]

Old post, but I have to admit I've nearly wet myself once upon a time doing exactly that, except in wet conditions. Usually, in rain, I like winter tires, but didn't have them with me.

Love racing in the rain, even when I was racing motorcycles, I'd have a set of rain slicks and have a blast...

Originally Posted by trekkor

It happens quick, without warning.
Almost two years later, this turn still reminds of what could have happened.


KT

[jmz]

My 914/6 GT type car is so much more forgiving than my 911. I can almost let go of the wheel and ask god to take over any time I get into trouble. It is quite simply an amazing car to take to the limit on the track.

[winders]

I do love a souped up 914.....but I have yet to come across one on the track that could challenge my 911-based race car......

[jmz]

Originally Posted by winders

I do love a souped up 914.....but I have yet to come across one on the track that could challenge my 911-based race car......

Switch drivers and then check again?

[Jack Olsen]

Both are great platforms. But I think it's easy to overstate to real-world impact of engine placement. I've tracked loads of different cars, and also frequently taught the mid-engine vs rear-engine driving experience at the Los Angeles Porsche Experience Center. The fun thing about the PEC deal is that you're spinning both cars, frequently, one after the other. So it's easy to get a feel for the difference in the way they slide, drift, and spin.

It's a great way to learn. But there are bigger factors than engine placement between the 911 and 718 when it comes to lap times. And if I had to guess, I'd say there are more significant differences between the 914-6 and the 911 than engine location.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

When you get into the water-cooled 911s, you have a much more sophisticated suspension design and generally better camber curves. Frankly, the 914 suspension is somewhat compromised by using early 911-style front suspension and needing to fit the rear around the drivetrain.

I do wonder what suspension Winders has under his 911-based race car, and what venue he is talking about when he makes his comparison. (I suspect he means the Big Track.)

I do know of a couple of 914-based race cars that could probably give him a run for his money there, but they have very little actual 914 left in them by this point. At a guess, and it is a guess, they have less 914 in them than his car has actual 911 in it.

I know of one 914-based racer that should be very capable of beating his car at just about any autocross venue you can find, but there really is almost no 914 left in it. Turbo Subaru motor, Lotus Elise-based suspension, and so on. And lightening beyond what is practical for anything but an autocrosser. The car is a specialist, and I don't think it could ever run on the Big Track.

--DD

[winders]

No, I am not talking about autocrossing......

I think you will remember that my street legal 1978 911 Targa with a 3.2 and 7:31 ring and pinion and DOT tires would regularly hound and often beat Provasi's purple 914 autocross car on super soft bias-ply racing slicks. Tom used to lament that I forced him to buy news tires to beat me.....

So no, 914s with 914 suspensions didn't and don't scare me on the autocross course either. At least not at similar levels of preparation....

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Right, similar levels of preparation. The cars that I am thinking of are not.

--DD

[winders]

I would argue that my 911SC was not anywhere near the same level of preparation as Provasi's 914.....that 914 was a race car.

[stownsen914]

I'm partial to the 914 platform, and believe that a properly prepared 914 can have an advantage over a similarly prepared 911 (with equal drivers of course). 914s arguably need more attention than 911s to address basic inadequacies like chassis stiffness and rear suspension flexing. If you deal with those things, many of the other race mods are very similar.

[winders]

Originally Posted by stownsen914

I'm partial to the 914 platform, and believe that a properly prepared 914 can have an advantage over a similarly prepared 911 (with equal drivers of course). 914s arguably need more attention than 911s to address basic inadequacies like chassis stiffness and rear suspension flexing. If you deal with those things, many of the other race mods are very similar.

I just have not seen that to be true. There is a heavily modified 914 out here in northern California and one from central California that is even more modified and they have never been all that competitive with similarly developed 911 cars like mine.

If the 914 had an advantage, I would expect to see more of them in the GT ranks. After all, they were cheaper to buy than 911s......

[group911@aol.co]

Not that it's valid in today's development terms but a quick search; 1970 LeMans
(Race Results)
Pos. No. Drivers Car Entrant Laps Distance Km/h Pos. Gr. Div.
1st 23 Attwood / Herrmann Porsche 917 K Porsche Konstruktionen K.G. 343 4607.810 kms 191.992 1st S5.0 3001-5000
2nd 3 Larrousse / Kauhsen Porsche 917 L Martini International Racing Team 338 4541.950 kms 189.248 2nd S5.0
3rd 27 Lins / Marko Porsche 908/02 LH Martini International Racing Team 335 4502.780 kms 187.616 1st P3.0 2501-3000
4th 11 Posey / Bucknum Ferrari 512 S North American Racing Team 313 4209.600 kms 175.400 3rd S5.0
5th 12 de Fierlant / Walker Ferrari 512 S Ecurie Francorchamps 305 4103.520 kms 170.980 4th S5.0
6th 40 Ballot-Léna / Chasseuil Porsche 914/6 Etablissement Sonauto 285 3834.260 kms 159.761 1st GT2.0 1601-2000
7th 47 Kremer / Koob Porsche 911 S Ecurie Luxembourg 282 3790.630 kms 157.943 1st GT2.5 2001-2500
Not classified:

[winders]

Endurance race results mean nothing. Look at the qualifying times. At Le Mans in 1970, the best GT2.0 class 911 (car #64) qualified with a 4:29.6 while the best GT2.0 914/6 (car #40) qualified one spot behind at 4:30.0.

Look, 914s are great cars. There is just nothing special about them that make them better than a an equally prepared 911.