Who knows, the Cayenne might be looked back upon as the best Porsche ever in a few years... and just about every Porsche model (curiously enough, except the Boxster, really) met with skepicism when it was first introduced. 928, 924, 914, even the 911 was hated by 356 afficianados when it debuted...

... but think of it this way... the 928 ended up being a wonderful car, but there are many that think that it never should have been built. 911 Porsche World named the 928GTS and S4 among Porsche's best 100 cars (although the 9442.5 finished at a better ranking than any other front engined Porsche), but named the original 928 as being one of the ten cars that Porsche should have never built. Why? Because it was built for the wrong reasons. Porsche wanted to break out of its specialized niche and compete against luxury GT makers like Jaguar, Mercedes, Aston, and Maserati. This kinda worked for a few years (although the 944 line worked a LOT better), but after some years in production, the 928 died and Porsche went back to niche production... and they have always been successful doing this. The 986 and 996 (though uglier than any past 911) are wonderful cars and are making a huge profit for Porsche.

What Porsche really should do for its 3rd model line is what has worked in the past for them: a small GT coupe priced at entry level (for Porsche) prices: $35 - 40K. A quick coupe priced under the Boxster would be a huge boon for Porsche, and I have a feeling it would sell a lot better than a big, clunky SUV.

Not surprisingly, Porsche is considering this for its fourth model line... it is a much safer bet.

Re: Re: 924
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MRM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

4.8 Billion EURO turnover, 12% profit range, annual production about 55,000 sports cars, 1 billion EURO of available funds through cash flow. These are values that DCX, GM, Ford, Honda, and all the others can dream of.


No it's not. GM, Ford, Honda, etc. will make profits of 4 billion Euros in a good year. Their anual revenue is something like 40-50 billion dollars. They envy Porsche's profit per unit, but that's it. The mass marketers sell millions of cars per year and have a hard time justifying a model that sells "only" 55,000 units a year. Besides, selling cars in a niche market is notoriously risky. If your product goes out of style your unit sales can get cut by 90%. Didn't Excellence just report that Porsche sold something like 3,500 Boxsters total in the first 6 months of 2002? Porsche has sold 50,000+ units per year before. Just before it almost went broke the last time.

RIGHT! IT'S THE PROFIT PER UNIT THAT COUNTS! MASS CAR MANUFACTURERS ARE NOT ABLE TO REACH THIS REGIONS. REGARDING YOUR INTERPRETATION OF EXCELLENCE'S INFORMATION, PORSCHE DIDNOT BUILD 50,000+ BOXSTERS, BUT 50,000+ CARS: BOXSTERS + 911 CARRERAS. THE 3,500 BOXSTERS YOU'RE REFERRING TO, ARE THE BOXSTER SALES IN THE US ONLY. ANYWAYS BOXSTER SALES DROPPED DURING THE FIRST 6 MONTHS OF 2002. THE REASON WAS OBVIOUS...... THE REDESIGNED BOXSTER (MY 2003) WAS ABOUT TO HIT THE MARKET. SO WHO IS GOING BROKE MY DEAR PORSCHE FAN?




[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

More important however, and now I get to the question WHY Porsche needs the Cayenne, is that in order to secure the company's future Porsche decided to build a 3rd car. Now, as Porsche has a 15 year tradition of building all wheel driven sports cars (959, 911 C4) why not take an aim at a SUV.

But the Cayenne puts Porsche's profitablility, independence and viability at greater risk than almost anything else they've ever done. Plowing billions of dollars into an entirely new line that is chock full of competetors, into a market segment it has no experience with, selling to people who have no loyalty to the brand. If it works, great, they'll make some money. But if it doesn't, the downside risk is billions of dollars in losses and a diluted brand. And that is the fasted route to "Porsche AG, a subsidiary of Opel".


WHAT IS THE BREAK EVEN POINT FOR THE CAYENNE PRODUCTION? TRY TO FIND THIS OUT AND YOU HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT A TAKEOVER BY A SUBSIDIARY OF GM IS FAR BEYOND REALITY. HOLGER P. HAERTER DESERVES A LITTLE MORE RESPEKT!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

As soon as Porsche announced to build a SUV a few years ago, look at what happened with all the so called SUVs. BMW came with the X5 4.4iS, Mercedes with its ML 500 AMG, even DCX wants to put a big engine in a pickup truck I've heard (which even isn't an SUV to my standards :-)

That's exactly the problem. Why? And why should someone buy a Porsche SUV instead of the fine BMW, Mercedes and Range Rover products that are already available?

BMW'S FASTES X5 IS THE 4.6iS, NOT 4.4iS. THE CAYENNE IS FASTER ANYWAYS. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE SHOULD BY THE CAYENNE. AND THEY WILL. THE DRIVING AND HANDLING PERFORMANCE OF THE CAYENNE IS FAR SUPERIOR TO ITS COMPETOTORS.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dutchfly On the other hand Porsche always has the luxurious problem of defining something new. The 924/944 caused a lot of mayhem at their introduction, the 928 had to get adopted to many Porsche people's minds, the 914...... It's like Burberry. Try to put their idenity in something new...... Hell of a job, isn't it? The last line is kind of the point.

YES, IT IS. HAFE FUN DRIVING AROUND SAFE!

I HAVE TO OBJECT TO YOUR COMMENT ON PORSCHE CONSIDERING A MODEL BELOW THE BOXSTER LINE FOR ITS FOURTH MODEL LINE. WENDELIN WIEDEKING HAS CLEARLY STATED THAT THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN AS LONG AS HE IS AROUND: AND THAT WILL BE AT LEAST UNTIL SEPTEMBER 2007, THE ENDING DATE OF HIS CUUERNT CONTRACT WITH PORSCHE.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT......? I THINK HE'S RIGHT!

I was going to keep my Cayenne comments to myself but... the thought process of why Porsche is building the Cayenne has gotten crazy. If Porsche wanted to up their sales and make money they could follow Mercedes and BMWs lead and build an entry level car. Mercedes has that little coupe hatchback thing and BMW has their 318. Nobody *****es about those, they just buy them. Porsche could build a autocross monster that could beat the pants off of the Mini, Spyder, Golf and the dreaded Miata. They could bring back an aircooled 4 cylinder and build a $25k car that outhandles everything out there. People would complain that Porsche has sold out to the econo class but once they started winning national events I think it would happily be accepted back into the folds of mother PCA. Plus, they could put in a six speed tranny that would let it get 40+mpg. Then they would have a two seat commuter car that can kick ass in one of the most widely attended types of grassroots racing. Has anyone read the cost of Pobst fielding a psuedo factory team to compete at the national level!!! You had better own a few oil wells or the patents to an operating system. A throwback to the dreaded 914... imagine that, a Porsche people could afford to race. How many Boxsters did anyone see at the last autocross they attended? Too expensive a proposition to potentially scratch on one of those little orange cones. Der Fatherland is not building the Cayenne to make money. How many soccer moms do you know that have $80k to spend on transportation. I know a lot of guys that would love to buy a car for $25-$30k that they could drive to work and then race on the weekend. Porsche is building the Cayenne because they can!!! They are a niche marque that excels at making supercars and pricing them within the reaches of the upper class. It makes them enough money to be viable and to continue to tinker. All of us schmucks that watch F1 and indy racing never ever see the Porsche name anymore. F1 and indy are the most widely watched sporting events in the world (mainly F1)... there is lots of advertising time there for the middle class guys who want to root for BMW or Mercedes. Never any Porsches cause they don't sell to those people. Too bad though...Mazda and Toyota and Nissan are making a ton of money with the Miata, Spyder and 350Z cause normal people can afford them. I own old Porsches (74 914, 83 944) cause I love them and enjoy working on them. My daily driver is a Passat cause it is relatively maintenance free and a ton of fun on the off-ramps. The Cayenne will be cool to look at, probably more fun to drive but the people that can afford them will probably never experience a perfect four-wheel drift or a hair raising oversteer situation. Oh well, maybe the VW dealer will let me test drive one.
Sorry for the opinion but it just bothers the heck out of me that since I am looking for a new car I am going to have to go Jap with something like a 350Z. Porsche could romp that riceburner if they had any interest!!!

Finally, someone with some oh-so-true comments. I really appreciate your contribution and I'm happy that you spoke up here!

PT

(the following is my opinion...)
The people on this forum don't hate the Cayenne, rather, they hate the people that will be driving it, and the fact that the same company who will be making it also makes their beloved 911. If I have way too much money, I'd buy a Cayenne. Then I'd drive it off road, bouncing it's tail happily against various objects. I'd also drive it through some serious mud, maybe even jump something..just for kicks. Since it's a Porsche, it will likely survive. Then, I'd park it in front of a Starbucks, unwashed of course, and let people appreciate my pepper wagon for the well-built piece of Porsche machinery it is. Maybe I'd even give a Range Rover a little bump parallel parking since that guys car was likely never off road.

If it was the Chevy Cayenne, this car would be loved by so many more.

Can I come with you for a cup of coffee at Starbucks? By the way, that coffee is on me!

Peter

I have an ML430 that I drove off-road and through a mudhole before bringing it in for a routine service. Everyone at the dealership freaked out that I had mud streaked all the way to the roof!!! I thought that was funny but they all looked down their noses at me. The best day so far with my ML was when I took it to my in-laws farm in N Georgia and drove through all kinds of brush and mud and crap and then later that night took it down and raced it at the dragstrip without washing it off. I bought the truck cause I like the fact that it is super comfortable on the highway but mean enough to offroad and fast enough to have fun racing. I have not yet had the b@lls to take it out on the autocross track. Maybe sometime this winter.
JB

Dutchfly, you are quick to agree with them, but this is what I have been saying all along!

let me quote myself:

"I'm sure that the Cayenne will be a very fast SUV, and probably the best damn SUV in the world... but the fact of the matter is that I hate SUVs, and I was absoultely mortified that my beloved Porsche Dr Ing would stoop so low as to bend to market trends."

AND

"The Porsche Cayenne will undoubtedly be a supremely accomplished truck... It's a status symbol, and Porsche is bending over backwards to meet current trends (albeit five years too late)."

I have always said the Cayenne will undoubtedly be a wonderful SUV. I just think it's a terrible idea for Porsche, a maker of SMALL, LIGHT, and NIMBLE SPORTS CARS for 60 years to come out with a large, 4-door SUV just because they are popular. This is selling out to me, and I hate it.

Well, this is exactly where we have a different perception. You say you do not like SUVs. But you agree with Porsche s plan to grow and add stability to their financial situation. What would you propose? It's easy to critize, but not easy to come up with an alternative?

Well, I think that the growing market of SUV vehicles fits Porsche quite well. So the financial part will be taken care of by that. Now as for Porsche's reputation of being a sports car manufacturer with cars hot shots like 356 Carrera 2, 904 GTS, 911 Turbo, 917, 928 GTS, 944 Trubo, Boxster S, GT2 etc. comparing to the Cayenne, yes I agree that that is something completely diferent.

But if you like it or not.... Watch what will happen in the near future in a famous African dessert...... You don't have to like the Cayenne. That's not my point and also not Porsche's point. You don't have to identify yourself with this new car. There are currently 2 other models available you can identify yourself with. And Porsche drivers we all are and will be!

PT

I am willing to bet that whateve happens in the African Desert is nothing like what we will see on the road. Kinda like what happened with the 959 that they built for offroad...the only thing that was the same was the shape. This also goes for the American LeMans series...sure they have the speaker covers on the dashboard but without spend a few hundred grand more than the price of a C4 you have a car that looks the same from the outside but not even close on the inside. Why can't Porsche build and race a car that requires little to no mods? There are classes of racing out there that require you to be relatively bone stock... when are we going to see something like that? I guess if I had a few hundred grand under my mattress I would have a different opinion :)
JB

Well DSP, it mostly works the other way around with racing. The technology transfer with regards to racing activities mostly flows from the race car towards the series production car. Not the other way around. And it's been like that for years!

If you like to take an unmodified car to the track you can do this as well. There are racing series for this type of unchanged vehicles. But.... They are not as spectacular, fast and flashy as the highly modified race cars.

If you get a chance go to a Porsche club racing event. You'll see a lot of different stuff out there! I might go to see Dakar next year!:p

Well DSP, it mostly works the other way around with racing. The technology transfer with regards to racing activities mostly flows from the race car towards the series production car. Not the other way around. And it's been like that for years!

If you like to take an unmodified car to the track you can do this as well. There are racing series for this type of unchanged vehicles. But.... They are not as spectacular, fast and flashy as the highly modified race cars.

If you get a chance go to a Porsche club racing event. You'll see a lot of different stuff out there! I might go to see Dakar next year!:p

PT

I think I would probably be a little more amicable toward the Cayenne if they built a racing/rally version first, used it and won, and then built a production version.

CJF, unfortunately that is not the way how it works.

That's the way it worked with the 959...

... and the Carrera...

... and the 550...

... and the 944, for that matter.

Well, if you say so..... Must have missed something....

The 959 debuted as a rally winner in the early 1980s, the production model didn't come out until 1987.

The 550 was so popular as a race car that the company produced a road version (550A)

In 1982, Porsche ran at LeMans with their 924GTSR... it was basically a 924 Carrera GT with a new, bigger, 928-sourced engine. Even though it was in the slowest class, it managed to not only finish the race, but place 7th overall (Porsche had an outright win that year anyhow, i believe). This was basically the first public running of the car that became the 944. The production version was seen a year later.

That's becasue all those vehicles exist in the PAST tense, so you don't have to use a crystal ball and theory to understand them completely. People have LIVED with them for decades.

Not true with the Cayenne, yet.

Oh, and BTW, only a poseur would care how he appears in a car.

Which of course, explains why the 928 was so good. So many years of race winning 928s before you could buy a road car...