Cayenne is... a Volkswagon!

[scottmandue]

Here I go again with my Saturday, sitin in the office unsupervised, drinkin too much coffee rant, apologies in advance.

I really don't care much for the "944 is an AUDI" or "914 is a VW" mentality, I mean Ferrari used Fiat parts, Cadillac used Chevy parts etc. who cares as long as it gets the job done.

I will refrain from making direct quotes as not to incur any copyright infringement

Car and Driver November 2002
Porsche Cayenne
First the author complains about having to fly ten hours each way only to get a fifteen minute look at and sit in the Cayenne! Well you can't accuse the Porsche guys for sucking up to the media! Although if you think how much is ridding on this deal it might not be a bad idea.
Next he puts down on the styling, something like, looks like a 911 that has been in a terrible accident (the Australian press had some more colorful remarks)

And here it is, page 96, not a quote but my summation: The Cayenne was designed as collaboration between Volkswagen and Porsche with about twenty per cent of the truck being Porsche!

On a lighter note there is a criptic refence to the mighty 944 turbo on page 18 in the letters section.

Also nice articles on the new Viper, Maserati Cambiocorsa, and a new addition to my dream car list, the Infiniti G35.

[CJFusco]

What was the 944 reference?

[scottmandue]

Again not wanting to quote anything.
A gentleman named John who owns a 1986 turbo writes in referring to the August 2002 issue and expressed his anguish at seeing a picture of the same year/model with a blown engine. He then goes on to comment on the cost of having everything rubber replaced on his car.
Not terribly interesting in itself, just interesting to see a 951 mentioned in a magazine that predominately reviews new cars.

[turbohead7]

The Cayenne is more Porsche than most people think, trust me. I hate the "Porsche is an expensive VW" mentality, it pisses me off beyond all belief----and it's not because I have anything against VW, either. VW's are great cars for the money. What jacks me up is all the people who make this statement (not you guys) and don't even know that it was Dr.Ferdinand Porsche himself that designed the infamous VW Beetle for Adolf Hitler! Hitler wanted something the Germans could be proud of, and that could be reliable/inexpensive. So who better in that time than the father of all things Porsche to take on the job? VW and Porsche have their history, and that's a good thing. When Dr. Porsche first began building cars during the war, the only parts he could get his hands on were the ones left over from the nearby VW plant. If it weren't for this union, we might not have the cars that we love so much now. So, the 944 engine is based off an AUDI truck motor, big deal! Porsche has done more R/D (research and development) for itself and others than any other car company I've heard of. A HUGE portion of Porsche's pocket money comes from their R/D facility at Weissach, Germany. They take on requests from anyone and everyone who can't figure their s#^$ out on their own, or did but it's not reliable. Porsche has contributed to many of the parts developments on all kinds of cars, including american car companies. German engineers are some of the best and they know it, so they're up for rent. But you never hear about Porsche's contributions to other car companies, do you? So when VW and Porsche go in on something like the Cayenne it must be VW technology, right? WRONG! VW plans to have a similar SUV, which will share some of the technology and parts, this collaboration of making two different vehicles which will share building/production techniques will lower costs for both companies. Mark my words this SUV will be bad-ass and the VW one ain't coming with an eight cylinder twin turbo engine! For all of you out there who thinks the Cayenne is going to be an expensive VW SUV, Just keep in mind that this truck tied the Boxster S' lap times at the Nurburgring. Sorry guys, I just get a little hot-headed with all the mis-information out there. CJFusco I hope you change your mind about the Cayenne. I feel weird about the whole four door concept too, but it's necessary to increase Porsche's sales over the next few years. An SUV was rated #1 vehicle most Porsche customers would like to see next. This poll was given to life-long customers and Porsche is taking it seriously. Don't forget that Porsche is still, and always plans to be a stand alone car company, just imagine what might happen if Ford or Honda bought Porsche! As far as I'am concerned, eight cylinders, all-wheel drive, and twin turbos are all Porsche.

[Goku]

VW was made by porsche. So technically people who say Porsche's are expensive VWs have it backwards. VWs are cheap Porsche's.

[turbohead7]

Halle-friggen-lujah.

[scottmandue]

I agree with you turbohead, perhaps my attempt at sarcasm came off a little weak.
Note that I started the thread stating that I don't buy into any of the namebrand bigotry thing.

My feelings about Volkswagen, think how many of those little air cooled four bangers are still running around the desert getting the crap beat out of them. I also think most anyone here would not turn down a Jetta turbo, V6, W8, or a AUDI Quatro etc.
I was just paraphrasing what the magazine said.

[Rollins]

I don't hate the Cayenne, but I will say this. If Porsche really had to deviate from the straight up sports car, they should have tried making something that is a sedan that isn't as aggressive looking, but packs the same punch.

[Bob's944]

Cayenne is a Porsche.. developed with VW to defer costs. It will have newly designed Porsche engines and transmissions. The VW Turange on the other hand will be sporting Audi's best engines and trannys. Base engine for the Porsche is the new 4.5L 32V V8 with 345HP (starting in the mid $60k range), the twin-turbo version is going to be at 450HP and good for 165 mph ($90k and up). Porsche plans on racing the Cayenne on pavement before it goes showing it off offroad. I'm sure you'll see it in the Paris Dakar Rally and in the Baja soon tho.

VW Turange will start off with Audi's 3.0L 30V V6 at 220 Hp (around $36k) and upgrade here to a version of the 4.2L 40V V8 that will come in at around 330 HP and closing on a $60k pricetag. The ultimate and only real VW engine might not be offered here in the the US, it's the V10 twin turbo diesel rated at 310 HP and 555 ft-lbs of torque, YES that's FIVE HUNDRED FIFTY-FIVE FOOT POUNDS!!!! I would guess that you'll see that version shown off in the major rally races too.

Both the Cayenne and the Turange are said to have tow ratings of 7700#, so I'm guessing the suspension and brakes will be nearly the same on the 2 models, at least the upper level VW versions, the entry level might be sporting lesser braking capabilities.

[1.2gees]

turbohead7, it's funny that you say:

"So, the 944 engine is based off an AUDI truck motor, big deal!"
and:
"Sorry guys, I just get a little hot-headed with all the mis-information out there. " in the same paragraph...

"The Cayenne is more Porsche than most people think, trust me. " Tell me more about this one?

"Porsche has done more R/D (research and development) for itself and others than any other car company I've heard of." Think of GM?

"But you never hear about Porsche's contributions to other car companies, do you?" I do... Opel comes to mind, harley was a recent other... I'm sure there are many others, like you said Porsche helps other manufacturers...

"Cayenne is going to be an expensive VW SUV, Just keep in mind that this truck tied the Boxster S' lap times at the Nurburgring." Really? I think they were aiming much higher than that, we're talking v8 tt yes? Where'd you get this information from?
Ahmet

[Moneyguy1]

Just as an observation.....

The original Porsche was built largely from the VW parts bin. I think we all agree with that. Many decades later, VW has "moved on" to other designs, none of which feature a rear engine configuration. Only Porsche still retains that feature. In that respect, the company holds true to its VW roots.

OTOH, any time the company has been in financial straits, they come out with something that is a bit more "conventional" i.e. water cooled, front engine, or mid engine. After finances apparently get better, the company drops the alternative configuration which has saved its bacon, and goes back to the VW derived formula of rear engine. The only concession has been water cooling since the limits of simple air/oil cooling has been reached. And, it is also interesting that Porsche always seems to get someone else to foot the R&D bill to a large extent.

This is true with the 914, the 944 and its derivatives and I wonder how much longer before the Boxster goes this way, seeing as sales are seriously down from previous years.

The rear engine design has been tweaked, modified, fudged, and made to handle acceptably at high speeds in the hands of an experienced driver; but can be lethal to the less capable pilot. The other configurations mentioned have proven themselves stable and competent in less experienced hands.

Porsche, for the most part, does what most manufacturers do. They design the drive train and style the body, and even many of these components are outsourced. Most of the less vital components are supplied by outsiders, the same outsiders that supply other maufacturers. In many cases, they are supplied by other car manufacturers like VW/Audi, Mercedes and others.

These are simply observations, not intended to inflame.

Granted, they are nice cars, but in the end, they are only cars, no matter what kind of emotion and loyalty they may instill in the owners.

I am sure those who buy the new SUV will be as emotionally charged with their purchase as the rest of Porsche owners who own more conventional models. That's what makes the world go 'round....

[individual]

am i the only porsche owner that will readily admit that my car is a rebadged VW? i mean come on, there are more parts in my car that say VW on them than there are that say Porsche. it was even built in an Audi plant if im not mistaken. im not trying to say anything bad, or take anything away from the car. but face facts, there is alot of VW influence in Porsche cars. i dont understand why this upsets so many people. does the fact that it shares a lot with VWs make the car any less of a performer? no, it doesnt so whats the problem. your car is a fast VW that looks really good. get over it.

[todwic]

I agree...with everyone! Now shut up and have a beerth!

[wawaloon]

What Drivetrain does this thing use?

[thamlin000]

Originally posted by turbohead7
So, the 944 engine is based off an AUDI truck motor, big deal!

I think Ahmet already hinted at this, but the 944 engine is not based off the Audi truck engine, the 924 2.0 is though. The 2.5 944 engine is a Porsche design, similar to the 928 engine (also a Porsche design).

[Moneyguy1]

It is based on the Audi engine, in an obtuse way. The body design for the 944 is hoodwise and compartmentwise identical to the 924 which did use the bored out 1.8 liter Audi engine. An engine had to be designed that would fit in this space at a reasonable cost. A "V" shaped configuration in the form of the 928 engine was impossible, due to the extreme width of the 928 engine. Therefore it was decided, not through good engineering as much as through economics to raid the parts bin and see what was out there that could be used. The engine had to be laid over to fit, so half a V8 seemed a possibility. (Pontiac did this in the 60's including the transaxle in the back; the concept is far from new)

Although "Porsche designed", the 944 engine was a compromise that borrowed heavily from the 928, including heads, pistons and some other internal parts. Interestingly, had Porsche made it a 5 cylinder engine like the larger Audi 2.2 engine, there would have been no need for the balance shafts, resulting in a lighter, less complex assembly with only two possible sources for leaks (the crank and the cam) versus four. A long time ago, engineers discovered that odd numbers of cylinders in line or radial are smoother at all speeds than their even numbered brethern.

Them's the facts, folks.....

Cheers!!

[wawaloon]

I still don't know what engine and drivetrain the Cayenne is using. Does anyone have the word on that? Thanks, Michael.

[turbohead7]

1.2gees I'm not sure what exactly you'd like me to tell you about the Cayenne being more Porsche than most people think, you'll need to elaborate on that one. However, as thamlin2000 stated, the Audi truck design was borrowed for the 2.0L 924, and a modified version of that was the 944 engine, put two of these together and we all know you have a 928. I should have been more clear on that. I'am not ignorant to the fact that other companies such as GM, Ford and Acura all do extensive R/D, although I didn't give them enough credit in my post. I was trying to emphasize the large and technologically advanced Weissach facility, which does extensive research while still being a rather small, family owned stand-alone car company. Pretty impressive when you yhink about it, as Porsche has no where near the wallet of GM. You got me on the props, however, as I do recall hearing of Porsche's work with Harley; maybe I don't do enough reading---but I still feel they're not recognized as much as they should be. And the Cayenne did tie the Boxster S at Nurburgring, and sure, Porsche was aiming for more. And they got it, a surprisingly nimble, powerful sporty SUV. But you're forgetting something, it is still an SUV, heavy, relatively poor center of gravity. All though the Cayenne is powerful it is not going to take a light, mid engined sports car like the Boxster S, sorry. Especially on a track like the Nurburgring. The fact that the Cayenne tied the Boxster S is not a shortcoming by any means, but quite an achievement. I got this information from a salesman who's been with Porsche for 25 years, and he got it from a higher up @ PCNA. I try not to be a purveyor of mis-information, but it's easy to get worked up over those who are (No one in this post, by the way). I'am a true car lover of all makes, they've all contributed to the superior cars we all enjoy. Whether it says Porsche, VW or Audi who cares? In the heat of the moment I was responding to those who wrote that article, kind of like when someone calls your sister a slut, you know?

[1.2gees]

turbo, I'm just a dick to people on this board sometimes nothing personal (I'm not like this all the time though).

Anyway, I'm calling you out about the cayenne being more porsche comment because it's vague and neither of us can really argue it at this point.

Porsche is not family owned, but it is pretty small for it's engineering power thanks to the profits from our cars.

As for the cayenne tts performance, they were aiming for the M3s lap times around nuremburgring. Last time I heard they were pretty close to that target, which is a whole lot faster than a boxter S. 450 hp and those huge brakes, as well as descent aerodynamics can make up for a lot of weight I suppose...

Frankly I don't really care who thinks what of my car, infact if could get a plate that said "vw in disquise" in a somewhat recognizable way I'd probabbly get it, I think it's funny. And a late model 944 is really not that much of a vw. It's no more 'non-porsche' than a finnish broduced boxter IMO.
Ahmet

[Moneyguy1]

I'm sorry, Turbo, but I would guess that it really might be the other way around. Witness the very poor electrics in many Porsche models...The poor design of the rear hatch which delaminates...the problem with our beloved '44 models and their timing belts...the need to practically disassemble the car to replace the clutch....cardboard dashes......the list goes on....

As much as I enjoy my old 944, I would NEVER say it was an engineering masterpiece, but it IS fun to drive!!!. OTOH, I also own an older VW Passat VR6 (actually, my wife's grocery getter). Relatively easy to work on, it has 80k on it and so far no failures of electrical parts save a fuel pump. The power windows still work, the heater works, It has timing chains rather than belts, once again the list goes on.

I have worked on 356, 911, 912, 924, 944 models over the years, owning one of each but a 911. The quality of each successive model goes downhill. The early models were primitive, but virtually bulletproof. Our model starts to become quite sensitive to small problems, like the #2 journal problem...That ain't good engineering. It is what you get by compromising and making too many trips to the old parts bin....

As for the Cayenne...I cannot think that it will do anything but be improved by having VW as a partner. AS I said, it will be all Porsche because Porsche puts a badge on it that says so. And, it may turn out to be the absolutely finest truck the world has ever seen. I hope it does. Still, I wonder how many pieces will have the linked rings symbol on them?

Cheers, Guys...After all, no matter how we deitize them, they are still only inanimate lumps of metal....

As Johnny or the Fantastic Four used to say....FLAME ON!!!!!