Drive the car, then make up you mind

[Dutchfly]

All this talk about the Porsche Cayenne...... Everything you can build your opinion upon are some pictures and some comments of car magazines and Porsche's own data and description of course.

Why don't you guys out there wait until you get a chance to drive the vehicle? A playboy bunny can be a looser in bed. An ugly girl can ride like a train. Din't you people get taught not to decide upon something before knowing all the ins and outs?

I guarantee that the Cayenne will rock you around the clock when you drive it. If you thinks she's ugly than that's your own bad luck!

PT

[CJFusco]

I don't need to drive a DeLorean to know the engine's a dog, I don't need to drive an Edsel to know that it was the biggest failure in automotive history, I don't need to drive a Geo Storm to know I wouldn't be seen dead in one.

[Dutchfly]

So, what's your point? If there is no substitute for a Porsche, I just guess, we'll see you driving around in a Cayenne next spring?

Originally posted by CJFusco
I don't need to drive a DeLorean to know the engine's a dog, I don't need to drive an Edsel to know that it was the biggest failure in automotive history, I don't need to drive a Geo Storm to know I wouldn't be seen dead in one.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by Dutchfly


I guarantee that the Cayenne will rock you around the clock when you drive it. If you thinks she's ugly than that's your own bad luck!

PT

Gee, it'll be my loss, I guess. When I'm driving my Dodge 4X4 pickemup through the Oregun logging roads on my way to my favorite Elk hunting grounds? Betcha I won't be seeing any pepperwagons rocking me around the clock...any more than I'll be seeing them at the next Auto-X. Boy oh boy though...I'll bet you'll see a few at the next Pebble Beach masters...and that's what I mean about saying that Porsche has sold it's soul. What's next? Tiger driving a pepperwagen instead of a Buick? He's a great golfer...a car guy, he ain't! Hurley must be swallowing hard when he tries to sell this machine...

[Dutchfly]

People look at this! Somebody trying to compare a PICKUP-TRUCK with the Cayenne! *LOL* It's getting funnier every day. Really very amusing.

Can your Dodge also do 0-60 under 6 seconds? Do a 160 MPH? And by the way, I don't think a Cayenne is meant to haul logs...... Or dead deer. Like your Dodge is intended to.

Come back to earth and try to compare apples with apples!

Originally posted by pwd72s


Gee, it'll be my loss, I guess. When I'm driving my Dodge 4X4 pickemup through the Oregun logging roads on my way to my favorite Elk hunting grounds? Betcha I won't be seeing any pepperwagons rocking me around the clock...any more than I'll be seeing them at the next Auto-X. Boy oh boy though...I'll bet you'll see a few at the next Pebble Beach masters...and that's what I mean about saying that Porsche has sold it's soul. What's next? Tiger driving a pepperwagen instead of a Buick? He's a great golfer...a car guy, he ain't! Hurley must be swallowing hard when he tries to sell this machine...

[West]

Actually, I don't know if that's such a good idea. New for 2003, Dodge SRT 10 pickup. It's the standard 1500 with the new V 10 viper motor- 500hp and 500 lb of torque. Weight: 5000 lb's, same as Cayenne - 50 more HP than tubro Cayenne. I could go on, but I think you get the idea... Maybe not so funny after all.

[Dutchfly]

No, I do not get the idea and I really still think it's funny!

As far as the Dodge SRT 10 is concerned, well, I think it's a great vehicle, but it's still not an apple. I guess you know how a truck drives, but I bet you don't know how the Cayenne drives. If you get the chance, take it!

Dodge SRT 10: 8.3L V-10, 500 HP, -> specific power: 60.24 HP/L
Porsche Cayenne Turbo: 4.5L V8, 450 HP, -> specific power: 100 HP/L. That are sports car numbers! An american car still needs cubic inches...........

Have fun!

Originally posted by West
Actually, I don't know if that's such a good idea. New for 2003, Dodge SRT 10 pickup. It's the standard 1500 with the new V 10 viper motor- 500hp and 500 lb of torque. Weight: 5000 lb's, same as Cayenne - 50 more HP than tubro Cayenne. I could go on, but I think you get the idea... Maybe not so funny after all.

[West]

You ask the question - Can your Dodge do 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds. Well, I'm merely pointing out that the answer could be YES. If you were to get in a drag race with a Dodge SRT 10 you might be surprised by the outcome... And by the way, somehow I don't think that pointing out that you have a better HP/L ratio will stop the laughter. In fact it will only increase if they point out the HP/L/$ ratio.

By the way, it's a slow day @ work and this is helping to pass time - don't take it to seriously.

[pwd72s]

I sincerely hope Dutchfly enjoys his pepperwagon...as much as I enjoy hauling dead deer & firewood in my Dodge...BTW, I said Elk hunting...they're a smidgeon bigger than deer. Perhaps somebody could enlighten me? If a 4X4 isn't for hauling deer or wood, what is it supposed to haul? Other than golf clubs, tennis rackets, rolex watches, etc.? Yeah, I can see why you'd need 160 mph and 0-60 in under 6 for that...gotta get to the country club by tee off time.

[pwd72s]

Want to race your new Cayenne? P.S. I get to pick the course. If I'm driving my '77 Powerwagon. Wanna pick an auto-x course? Okay...but I'll be bringing a 30+ year old 911. Your choice.

[Wayne 962]

How about Paris-Drakar then? I'm sure that's in the near future...

-Wayne

[pwd72s]

Fine Wayne, you know there is no way an individual could afford to take on a factory team, unless his name was Gates or Buffett. but if Daimler/Chrylser chose to run that rally? My $ wouldn't be on the pepperwagon. My point of the whole debate is WHY. WHY build it? Except for an increase in unit sales... Porsche did just that with the 924. Did it help them in the long run? To my way of (admittedly) old fart thinking, why in the hell would you want to build an "off road" vehicle that never goes off road? Only one answer...because it sells. Every car maker seems to be doing just that these days. But I used to think that somehow, Porsche was "special". Well gee...carbon fiber gear shift knobs sell too...but that doesn't mean they serve any really useful purpose.

[Wayne 962]

Your facts on the 924 are not 100% correct. The 924 was originally designed for Audi, with an Audi engine, to be built by Audi. They dropped the design, and Porsche built it instead. The car then became the 944 in the 2nd generation, which is a car worthy of the Porsche crest...

-Wayne

[Dutchfly]

Yep, I agree with Wayne. The 924 was initially designed to be a VW/Audi product, but were cleverly bought out by Porsche that let the car evolve to a driving machine (944/968). Porsche sold more then 300,000 units, so its succes was proven. But okay the 4 cylinder watercoolers are another story.

Back to the last 8 cylinder 4x4. I do get pwd72s's issue regarding WHY to build a car like the Cayenne. I think we all like to see Porsches driving around for the next "few" years. About 10 years ago Porsche was 1/2 inch away from going out of business. A very frightening idea, but thank goodness and also thanks to some clever ideas initiated by Porsche's management the company is where it stands now.

4.8 Billion EURO turnover, 12% profit range, annual production about 55,000 sports cars, 1 billion EURO of available funds through cash flow. These are values that DCX, GM, Ford, Honda, and all the others can dream of.

More important however, and now I get to the question WHY Porsche needs the Cayenne, is that in order to secure the company's future Porsche decided to build a 3rd car. Now, as Porsche has a 15 year tradition of building all wheel driven sports cars (959, 911 C4) why not take an aim at a SUV.

SUV: Sport Utility Vehicle....... SPORT (!!!) Utility Vehicle. Most of the cars in the market today are called like this, but look at a Chevy Suburban, Ford Explorer, Nissan Pathfinder, Dodge Durango, Mercedes M-Class etc. Is there anything that could justify the word SPORT in these vehicles? Other than the a badge on the tailgate of these cars? Naaaa!

Porsche sets new standards in this segment and is the only SUV that justifies its name. Look at it as a new definition of what has become a reference for soccer-moms and all the other crap.

As soon as Porsche announced to build a SUV a few years ago, look at what happened with all the so called SUVs. BMW came with the X5 4.4iS, Mercedes with its ML 500 AMG, even DCX wants to put a big engine in a pickup truck I've heard (which even isn't an SUV to my standards :-)

On the other hand Porsche always has the luxurious problem of defining something new. The 924/944 caused a lot of mayhem at their introduction, the 928 had to get adopted to many Porsche people's minds, the 914...... It's like Burberry. Try to put their idenity in something new...... Hell of a job, isn't it?

I just would like to point out that you shouldn't judge to early about the Cayenne and try to relate it to values that in definition are meant to be different then we know them. Try to think out of the box. I like the Cayenne or pepperbox as some people call it. I take it as a compliment because this pepperbox will stand out. And as Wayne already said, come out guys and get a drive through the African dessert. Who can keep up? A Touareg maybe?

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Your facts on the 924 are not 100% correct. The 924 was originally designed for Audi, with an Audi engine, to be built by Audi. They dropped the design, and Porsche built it instead. The car then became the 944 in the 2nd generation, which is a car worthy of the Porsche crest...

-Wayne

[Dutchfly]

By the way pwd72s..... Nice truck! Elk, deer, ducks, feasants, logs, quads... I know that the Cayenne would not be the vehicle to haul stuff like this around. Let's go hunting in your truck and I'll take you to the golf course for a game of ball, okay?

[CJFusco]

I'm sure that the Cayenne will be a very fast SUV, and probably the best damn SUV in the world... but the fact of the matter is that I hate SUVs, and I was absoultely mortified that my beloved Porsche Dr Ing would stoop so low as to bend to market trends.

I like my cars small, light, and fast... AND it doesn't even matter which end holds the engine... which is why Porsche was always a perfect fit for my tastes. Now that isn't necessarily true.

[Moneyguy1]

A serious question and observation..

Much has been said in this thread about domestic trucks vs. the Cayenne. Trucks (and the Cayenne IS a truck) are designed to haul things like firewood and dead elk to name two. If the Cayenne is not going to be used as a truck, then what is its function?

Not looking for a flame here. Just curious about the real purpose of a vehicle which prospective owners say will not be used for what it was designed for.

[CJFusco]

I agree with Moneyguy... SUVs, over the past 10 years, have devolved from usable utility vehicles (think Land Rovers and Jeeps) to pointless, lumbering, gas-guzzling, lane blocking status symbols. Most, like the Suburu Outback, wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell on dirt roads, let alone off-road...

... I remember that Car and Driver did a comparision test a few years back (the cover story was 993 Turbo S vs Acura NSX vs Dodge Viper GTS, and the 993 was declared winner). They took all the US's best-selling SUVs off-roading and rated them based on that. The winners were the Jeep Wrangler, Land Rover Discovery, Jeep Grand Cherokee, and Jeep Cherokee (no surprises there). All those trucks ended up with a total score of 80-something. The Suburu Outback ended up with a rating of 40. The car didn't even make it past the dirt road LEADING to the off-road tests... but I digress...

The Porsche Cayenne will undoubtedly be a supremely accomplished truck... but who in their right mind is going to bring an $80,000 truck off-road? In reality, probably nobody. So what's the point? It's a status symbol, and Porsche is bending over backwards to meet current trends (albeit five years too late).

[Dutchfly]

Is the Cayenne a truck or is it not? Is it's styling okay or is it not? Is it's purpose clearly defined or is it not?

Yeah, Porsche might be on the later side putting an SUV on the market. But look at worldwide car sales. Can you see a certain tendency? Well, that would justify all of you that state that Porsche is just an ordinary trend follower with its Cayenne.

It is very difficult nowadays to invent a new nitch. And let's be honest here... Porsche is a nitch car manufacturer. So, why don't you all out there come up with a proposal of what YOU think Porsche should have done with its 3rd car program.

It is clear that Porsche needs a 3rd car program in order to build a safe and secure future. Those who say it doesn't do not understand the way automotive business works. And as you might know, Wendelin Wiedeking is thinking about a program number 4. I wonder what this is going to be.

Trucks are build to haul dead dear or logs? Well, where do you put those in a Suburban, Escalade, Expedition, Grand Cherokee, etc. We ARE talking about an SUV here, NOT a pickup truck.

And by the way, would you think that BMW, Mercedes and Porsche put a SUV on the market without having done a carefull study about what potential customers want?

The order books are filled for about 1,5 years of Cayenne production. The majority of this is going to be shipped and sold in the USA. So, please try to convince me of the non-succes that this car is going to have.

The Cayenne surely doesn't ride like a low center of gravity sports car. It would be unfair to make a comparison like this. But it does ride like no other SUV out there now.

As I said..... Try the vehicle first, then make up your mind.

[MRM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

4.8 Billion EURO turnover, 12% profit range, annual production about 55,000 sports cars, 1 billion EURO of available funds through cash flow. These are values that DCX, GM, Ford, Honda, and all the others can dream of.


No it's not. GM, Ford, Honda, etc. will make profits of 4 billion Euros in a good year. Their anual revenue is something like 40-50 billion dollars. They envy Porsche's profit per unit, but that's it. The mass marketers sell millions of cars per year and have a hard time justifying a model that sells "only" 55,000 units a year. Besides, selling cars in a niche market is notoriously risky. If your product goes out of style your unit sales can get cut by 90%. Didn't Excellence just report that Porsche sold something like 3,500 Boxsters total in the first 6 months of 2002? Porsche has sold 50,000+ units per year before. Just before it almost went broke the last time.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

More important however, and now I get to the question WHY Porsche needs the Cayenne, is that in order to secure the company's future Porsche decided to build a 3rd car. Now, as Porsche has a 15 year tradition of building all wheel driven sports cars (959, 911 C4) why not take an aim at a SUV.

But the Cayenne puts Porsche's profitablility, independence and viability at greater risk than almost anything else they've ever done. Plowing billions of dollars into an entirely new line that is chock full of competetors, into a market segment it has no experience with, selling to people who have no loyalty to the brand. If it works, great, they'll make some money. But if it doesn't, the downside risk is billions of dollars in losses and a diluted brand. And that is the fasted route to "Porsche AG, a subsidiary of Opel".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

As soon as Porsche announced to build a SUV a few years ago, look at what happened with all the so called SUVs. BMW came with the X5 4.4iS, Mercedes with its ML 500 AMG, even DCX wants to put a big engine in a pickup truck I've heard (which even isn't an SUV to my standards :-)

That's exactly the problem. Why? And why should someone buy a Porsche SUV instead of the fine BMW, Mercedes and Range Rover products that are already available?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dutchfly

On the other hand Porsche always has the luxurious problem of defining something new. The 924/944 caused a lot of mayhem at their introduction, the 928 had to get adopted to many Porsche people's minds, the 914...... It's like Burberry. Try to put their idenity in something new...... Hell of a job, isn't it?


The last line is kind of the point.