Best Place to List-Consign-Auction

[Stophos]

I have decided to sell two of my cars, a 1969 911S and an 88 930.

The 911S is restored to a very, very high level.

The 930 is modified. It has about 45k miles but the engine is non-numbers matching (new case with no serial number) 3.5l, with Motec engine management and a Motec ADL dash. 89 G50/50 5 spd trans. Factory Ruf wheels and bumpers. The car was painted once. The paint is a very high quality single stage job. Carfax is clean. I am the second owner. Top notch build using all the right parts.

I suspect the best avenue for these may be different so I am asking for those with recent experience to give their thoughts as to the best avenue to move these. FWIW they are both in NJ.

Thanks - Chris

[speeder]

I would say BAT unless you could get the cars into some other specialty auction like RM or similar. There is no seller's fee and you could set a reserve on them to protect yourself plus the exposure is unmatched these days. Everyone on earth in the market for those two cars is on BAT.

Also, many cars that do not meet reserve there get sold privately soon after. Nothing to lose if presented well, IMO. Good luck and Happy Holidays.

[blucille]

check out Autokennel.com I have no affiliation except I've done business with Paul and Ed and was very pleased....and Paul and Ed are friends.

I believe they will usually get you every dollar you would get on BAT, without the hassles.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by speeder

I would say BAT unless you could get the cars into some other specialty auction like RM or similar. There is no seller's fee and you could set a reserve on them to protect yourself plus the exposure is unmatched these days. Everyone on earth in the market for those two cars is on BAT.

Also, many cars that do not meet reserve there get sold privately soon after. Nothing to lose if presented well, IMO. Good luck and Happy Holidays.

There’s only nothing to lose if the seller is ok with the recommended reserve BaT wants on the car, which many times isn’t what the seller is willing to let it go at. If you don’t agree with their reserve and you list it anyways hoping for your number - you potentially have some money to lose.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by speeder

I would say BAT unless you could get the cars into some other specialty auction like RM or similar. There is no seller's fee and you could set a reserve on them to protect yourself plus the exposure is unmatched these days. Everyone on earth in the market for those two cars is on BAT.

Also, many cars that do not meet reserve there get sold privately soon after. Nothing to lose if presented well, IMO. Good luck and Happy Holidays.

I agree on BAT, except there is a $99 upfront fee for the seller.

[specialtyoneinc]

930 BAT

911S you might want to look into the big auction house if it's real nice (#1) RM or Gooding.

[Stophos]

Thanks everyone. I though BAT for the 930 but I hear some horror stories since it is an open forum with many non buyers chiming in. I may try it.

Goodings came to see he 911s i wanted to include it in one of the big auctions but without reserve which I don’t feel is a good idea for me. It’s really super nice and a rare color but you never know what is going to happen.

Blicille, The Cars are in NJ so if I did contact Autokennel, do you know if the cars need to be shipped to Caifornia?

[JMS935]

Never give it to an auction house without a reserve, it’s just not worth the risk. It guarantees the auction house makes money on it, but it leaves the owner totally exposed.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by Stophos

Thanks everyone. I though BAT for the 930 but I hear some horror stories since it is an open forum with many non buyers chiming in. I may try it.

Goodings came to see he 911s i wanted to include it in one of the big auctions but without reserve which I don’t feel is a good idea for me. It’s really super nice and a rare color but you never know what is going to happen.

Blicille, The Cars are in NJ so if I did contact Autokennel, do you know if the cars need to be shipped to Caifornia?

As long as your 100% transparent and ignore any trolling comments you'll do fine on BAT. Also take professional style pictures and have a driving video also. Basically follow p911r formula and you should do really well.

https://bringatrailer.com/member/911r/

[blucille]

At some point the cars would go to California. As far as I know. But my conversations with Paul and Ed have always been insightful about the marketplace and they’ve been very forthcoming with details about the process and their perspective on what a car would bring.

Why not pick up the phone and ask. Transport from NJ to their place with a reputable carrier, enclosed is 1200-1500. Ask me how I know ��. It’s a small price to pay if they feel they can bring you the price you want.

[MichaelB]

Originally Posted by JMS935

Never give it to an auction house without a reserve, it’s just not worth the risk. It guarantees the auction house makes money on it, but it leaves the owner totally exposed.

Let me just ay that I have sold several cars with Gooding. All very nice, and all at no reserve. I think what is missing in your thought above is that a premium auction house (like Gooding & RM) brings with it a certain qualification or quality of car. That often times nets a higher sell price because the buyers feel that they have some comfort in the association with their representation. Not to mention their buyers are mostly made up of well vetted individuals ~ and when a room is full of those types it will most likely end up to your (and the auction house) favor.

It really does work that way. I find from actual experience that sharing a small percentage with the auction house for putting me in touch with their buyers has worked to my advantage. Risk has not been in the equation.

At the upcoming January Gooding in Scottsdale there are many no reserve wonderful cars that are crossing the block. Take a look:

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicles/?url=1&venues=XX&auction_years=XX&countries=XX&cat egories=XX&makes=XX&models=XX&est_low=0&est_high=1 0000000&model_year_first=1884&model_year_last=2018 &reserve=no&estreq=no&perpage=48&showpage=1&timeli ne=upcoming&loggedin=&time=1545449008

Proving that to just blindly say "never" do this is just much too conservitive for the car guys like me.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

Let me just ay that I have sold several cars with Gooding. All very nice, and all at no reserve. I think what is missing in your thought above is that a premium auction house (like Gooding & RM) brings with it a certain qualification or quality of car. That often times nets a higher sell price because the buyers feel that they have some comfort in the association with their representation. Not to mention their buyers are mostly made up of well vetted individuals ~ and when a room is full of those types it will most likely end up to your (and the auction house) favor.

It really does work that way. I find from actual experience that sharing a small percentage with the auction house for putting me in touch with their buyers has worked to my advantage. Risk has not been in the equation.

At the upcoming January Gooding in Scottsdale there are many no reserve wonderful cars that are crossing the block. Take a look:

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicles/?url=1&venues=XX&auction_years=XX&countries=XX&cat egories=XX&makes=XX&models=XX&est_low=0&est_high=1 0000000&model_year_first=1884&model_year_last=2018 &reserve=no&estreq=no&perpage=48&showpage=1&timeli ne=upcoming&loggedin=&time=1545449008

Proving that to just blindly say "never" do this is just much too conservitive for the car guys like me.

It’s not a risk I would ever take, I don’t see the point of it. I’ve heard of pretty bad stories of no reserve car auctions selling for far less than they were “promised by the auction house” to sell at. With some even questioning the legitimacy of the auction process itself afterwards. I think the entire collector car auction industry has the collector car hobby duped into thinking that they’ll get more money without a reserve (when it’s actually for their benefit to increase their sell through rate), but that doesn’t make any logical sense though. Buyers go into an auction with a set price they’re wiiling to bid a car up to, I’ve never heard of anyone that adds a premium to it simply because the car is listed at no reserve. You’ve gotten lucky up till now, no reserve will eventually burn you at some point. I would rather protect my asset(s) with a reserve I am comfortable with, and just pay a slightly higher commission on it. Or ship it home if it doesn’t meet my reserve, that ensures I’m not getting screwed with a lower than expected hammer price. It happens, I’ve seen it, I’d just choose never to put myself in that position.

[MichaelB]

Hey JMS I respect that.

And while I am certain that it can happen as you describe it also happens positively quite often. Look here to this example:

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1973-porsche-911-2-4-t-targa-2/

That car was assumed to go at or around estimate at the time, but it exceeded that figure by a large margin. If the cosigner had not been connected with the right people his result would not have been as lucrative. There are countless examples of the same when working with a premium auction house.

With that said, cars that may not offer that something special may perform less dramatically ~ but for my cars, and the like minded - We generally come out ahead when working with the good auction houses.

[JMS935]

Michael, so is your contention that the ‘73 targa example you refer to wouldn’t have sold for as much money simply if it had a reserve on it? Maybe that’s the disconnect, becuase I don’t see the bidders changing their tune one bit with or without a reserve on it. That car’s hammer price would’ve been the same even if it had a reserve on it.

That targa you reference might’ve only had two bidders on it for the last 150k, so what happens when you take one of them away with a no reserve auction? The seller gets smoked, cause nobody is left to push the bid up another 150k. These collector car auctions are all thin markets when you get passed the initial entry stages of bidding. Sometimes there’s only one guy that really wants the car, and when that happens there’s nobody left to push him to the max bid limit he has set. If it’s a no reserve auction he just got a great deal, while the seller is second guessing his no reserve decision.

Here’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about, this Kremer was bid up to 92.5k in July, thankfully the seller had a reserve on it, because just a few months later it was bid up to nearly double that amount at RM Sotheby’s, and sold. Now the high bidder at the BaT auction might’ve been willing to pay up to what it sold for at RM, but nobody was left to bid him up there. So it’s a good thing the seller had himself protected with a reserve on that auction, or else he would’ve seen it flip for nearly double at RM Sotheby’s, and he would’ve been pretty bitter about it.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-porsche-930-turbo-carrera-7/

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/ca18/the-petersen-automotive-museum-auction/lots/r0075-1976-porsche-935-gr-5-turbo-by-kremer/730901

We simply disagree on this issue. I’d never let any of mine go at no reserve, and I’d never advise anyone to go that route either, thus my earlier post to the OP. Now if we are talking the auction house will ‘guarantee’ in writing a certain level for you in a no reserve auction, like is customary at art auctions, then that’s a totally different story. In which case it’s not a truly no reserve auction even though on appearances it is. The auction house assumes the no reserve risk in that scenario, which has burned the auction houses plenty of times in the art world...cause it’s never a good idea to auction something that is both rare and valuable without a reserve in a thin market where there is such a wide range of perceived value on said item. The Kremer’s perceived value was in the 90k’s on BaT in July, while that same car’s perceived value was almost double that at RM Sotheby’s just a few months later in December.

[voitureltd]

Originally Posted by JMS935

It’s not a risk I would ever take, I don’t see the point of it. I’ve heard of pretty bad stories of no reserve car auctions selling for far less than they were “promised by the auction house” to sell at. With some even questioning the legitimacy of the auction process itself afterwards. I think the entire collector car auction industry has the collector car hobby duped into thinking that they’ll get more money without a reserve (when it’s actually for their benefit to increase their sell through rate), but that doesn’t make any logical sense though. Buyers go into an auction with a set price they’re wiiling to bid a car up to, I’ve never heard of anyone that adds a premium to it simply because the car is listed at no reserve. You’ve gotten lucky up till now, no reserve will eventually burn you at some point. I would rather protect my asset(s) with a reserve I am comfortable with, and just pay a slightly higher commission on it. Or ship it home if it doesn’t meet my reserve, that ensures I’m not getting screwed with a lower than expected hammer price. It happens, I’ve seen it, I’d just choose never to put myself in that position.

I suppose it can depend on lots of uncertain variables, economy at listing vs sale time, people in attendance, auction location, the weather sale day, all reasons I have paid the extra $$$ for a reserve.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by voitureltd

I suppose it can depend on lots of uncertain variables, economy at listing vs sale time, people in attendance, auction location, the weather sale day, all reasons I have paid the extra $$$ for a reserve.

Yep, all valid reasons NOT to list it without a reserve. Your economy at listing vs sale time is a prime example of why some (possibly many) no reserve cars in the January auctions could sell for less than what the seller’s want and/or expected. When they initially agreed to a no reserve auction, the economy (markets) were in much better shape than they are now, and while we could see a recovery between now and the time of the auctions, that’s not all that likely. And it’s very possible that it could get even worse, which might keep bidders at home, or lessen bids of those that do attend. Maybe the recent market route doesn’t spillover into the collector car market, but I wouldn’t bet on it, I’d suspect there is some correlation there. You wouldn’t tell your stock broker in October (when you agree to the consignment) to sell your Amazon shares at the market on close on January 17th regardless of where they are trading at on that day. Why would you do that with any other asset class? Rhetorical.

[MichaelB]

I get it. Its just not correct though.

Let it be said that I never inferred that no reserve meant that the car would sell for more.

I personally believe that no reserve only tells the bidders that the car will sell. Meaning that their bid is not wasted, as it could actually buy the car. Does that make it go for more? Heck I doubt it.

But... Does the heat of the moment make them go for more? Yes. It does. Does having many big ego players there at the same moment causing bidding wars help? Yes, it does. Is being represented by a respectable auction house an advantage? Sure is, as your own example of the Kremer proves it 100%. And that is exactly what I have been talking about from the 1st post of mine.

That car did not reach nearly the price elsewhere that a quality auction house provided. And if you read back on each of my posts, that is nearly verbatim what I have been saying.

Which is exactly the reason why I continue to be a Gooding customer without any fear. Even with the swing of the markets the clientele at a quality auction house like that is mostly unaffected by such trivial matters. It is without a doubt, a formula that works.

[wgwollet]

Bonhams wants my 78 930, Special Color PTS, will forgo the sellers fee but I must get it to Amelia
Island 2019, there are pro and con
Pro, will be the only 930 in the auction of 100 cars, great color catalog

Con, I must pay to get from Florida, I think no reverse, but I need to find out.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

I get it. Its just not correct though.

Let it be said that I never inferred that no reserve meant that the car would sell for more.

I personally believe that no reserve only tells the bidders that the car will sell. Meaning that their bid is not wasted, as it could actually buy the car. Does that make it go for more? Heck I doubt it.

But... Does the heat of the moment make them go for more? Yes. It does. Does having many big ego players there at the same moment causing bidding wars help? Yes, it does. Is being represented by a respectable auction house an advantage? Sure is, as your own example of the Kremer proves it 100%. And that is exactly what I have been talking about from the 1st post of mine.

That car did not reach nearly the price elsewhere that a quality auction house provided. And if you read back on each of my posts, that is nearly verbatim what I have been saying.

Which is exactly the reason why I continue to be a Gooding customer without any fear. Even with the swing of the markets the clientele at a quality auction house like that is mostly unaffected by such trivial matters. It is without a doubt, a formula that works.

We can agree to disagree then, I didn’t realize there was a correct answer.

[pkramer]

I've enjoyed reading all the comments and think there is some merit and good points in each one. Also, thank you to Blucille for the kudos.

Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer and there is no single platform that is the right solution for every buyer. However, I can say that selling specialty cars like Stophos and most everyone else on this forum has become exponentially more difficult in the last 3+ years. I have witnessed this first hand. There are just too many pitfalls to navigate in today's market as well as huge risks (fraud, devaluation, etc) not to mention the exorbitant amount of time in selling a car that it makes less and less sense for a novice to go at it alone.

It doesn't mean that someone can't be successful selling on their own. It just means that the odds are getting slimmer. Also, it's no longer a matter of, "oh well, it didn't sell I'll just wait for the right buyer", but there is now the potential of hurting the value by permanently give a vehicle a scarlet letter unnecessarily.

I believe that each seller should do their own research on who will help them sell their car. They need to treat it as seriously as when they are buying a car. I am quick to tell a potential consignor if they aren't the right fit for AutoKennel just as much as if I think I can help them.

I certainly wish our industry was more transparent. Fortunately, as buyers and sellers continue to become more savvy, I think it will force transparency, which will be good for everyone who enjoys this hobby.

Cheers and happy holidays,

Paul Kramer
AutoKennel®
714-335-4911
paul@autokennel.com