Help to assess value: '85 ROW 3.2 coupe with potential title washing
 

I'd love your help to assess fair price on a car I'm considering purchasing. It's got an odd record! Here's the details.

1985 911 Carrera Coupe
ROW European car imported in '85 by Neal Rayburn
104k miles
Clean Texas title
Texas car for last 20yrs
Black exterior, tan interior
Good condition and well-cared for

BUT... I'm attaching pics of the Carfax report which indicates a minor accident in '93 followed by a declaration of salvage in OK two years later. Then it was rebranded with a clean title after that and eventually made it to TX where, again, it received a clean title.

The seller was unaware of any of this. He's had the car 7 years and never seen any sign of an accident or repair work on or under the car.

So, what do you think? If the car passed all inspections for rust and mechanical condition, how much does that salvage incident matter? Where would you guys place the fair price of this car?

Thanks for the help!!


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So it was a grey market car to begin with here, correct? That is the controlling factor I would think. On a car that is 30 plus years old the main value consideration on a grey market car is condition. Never going to be collectible, so no valuation in that regard.
Just my opinion, could be otherwise, of course.

I would say a low 30k car by your description and Carfax hiccup. It would have to be in rough shape & show signs of accident on the PPI to get anywhere under 30.

That’s an outdated perspective. Grey market means nothing today. Condition today means the most.

Yep. There is nothing about a grey market car that detracts from its value at all simply based on the method of which it was imported.

I sure wish there was a federal standard for the salvage issue. There should be no state allowed to issue a clean title once a car has been salvaged. How isn’t that law yet? That’s a crooks loophole left wide open.

Accident salvaged in 93 is only 6 years from new ... makes one doubt it was a minor incident.

Who knows ? That's the problem w/salvage titles.

^ this.

The salvage title history is a hit of 25% or more on value, in my experience, so I'd put the car closer to $27K if everything else checks out.

93-85 =|= 6

8
Was thinking 87 for some reason... I wonder why.

The seller might not have known, but now you know, and you can't un-know the salvage history. Take fair market and deduct 30%, and know that if you ever go to sell it, even at a discounted price, the pool of buyers will be smaller.
As long as you know what you're buying with a car with salvage history you'll be fine, it's the people who buy it thinking they are the smartest guy in the world and then when they go to sell it have complete amnesia about the salvage hit to value.
Eyes wide open on this one.

My 993 has old salvage history, but I can't see the title when I'm driving!

---Adam
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This is really helpful data! Thanks everyone! Based on what you're saying plus where Haggerty puts the value ($43k for #3, $28 for #4), it does seem like around 28-29k is as high as I should go. That's based on what appears to be #3 or #4 condition minus 30% for the salvage issue. That puts us right at 30k at #3 and closer to 20k at #4. I doubt he'll go that low, so I'll probably walk. Thanks everyone! BTW, if anyone ever has more of the story on how the carfax above could have happened, I'd love to hear it! About 18 months b/w a "minor" incident with a fence to total salvage in another state of an 8-yr-old car... then right back to clean title in a 3rd state exactly 2 years later. Crazy.

Who cares about a salvage title issued 25 years ago? As long as the car was repaired properly and is in good condition now, I don't think it should be relevant on a driver-quality car. Get a good PPI and enjoy this thing!

To my significant surprise, the seller has come back to me after I sent a lengthy message about the salvage and title-washing issues and decided that if I still want it, I can have it at my suggested FMV price of $29k (he did think about it for 3 hours before responding). He also finally sent interior pics which had been sparse in his ad. Here's a few of the best, along with a few others. Assuming the car passes a good PPI, it sure seems hard to pass on a 3.2 coupe in clean condition with 100k miles, especially one with the +24hp and -80lbs the ROW cars got (higher compression ratio, no cat, smaller bumpers). It's hard to imagine I'll ever find a good running 3.2 coupe in the 20's. And worse case scenario, if we had a family emergency and I had to liquidate the car quickly, it's also hard to imagine I couldn't get at least 25k back for it. Hmmmm...
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It's hard to imagine I'll ever find a good running 3.2 coupe in the 20's. And worse case scenario, if we had a family emergency and I had to liquidate the car quickly, it's also hard to imagine I couldn't get at least 25k back for it. Hmmmm...

........unless at a minimum, it needs new valve guides and a valve job (which at 100k I think most will tell you the 3.2 would most likely need), and....

.......your PPI doesn't include removing the lower valve covers and checking the dilivar cylinder head studs and a few of them are broken....

.........at which point you will be spending more than 10k to fix things to keep it, and to liquidate it fast with the above issues, 25k might be a stretch.

That being said, and after looking at the photos, shouldn't a ROW 911 have side marker lights on the front fenders?

Definitely agreed on engine bits. I do expect to have a full PPI on this vehicle. These issues would be true of any 3.2 nearing 100k miles, though. Also, very good eye on the side markers! You're right, so that means fenders have been replaced. Owner has no records going that far back, so there's no way other than visual inspection to check anything else.

Doing a PPI is fine but it's no guarantee. A $$$ expense item can happen anytime even with an A+ PPI.

Your mention of selling in case of a family emergency seems to say, my apologies if I read it wrong, that is not in the budget. It's just the reality of owning these.

Definitely no apologies needed. Actually, we have significant savings. But I'm an engineer by training and so it is my nature to always plan for worst case scenarios. Part of the appeal of this car is that since I had budgeted $35k (pretax) for this purchase, at $29k I have a $6k cushion for unexpected expenses. I think the key is just trying to assess clearly what impact the salvage history will have should I want to sell the car in the future. The comments have been helpful at gauging that.

$29k seems like a very fair deal if the accident damage isn't serious and the engine is in good health. You should be pretty safe with you money IMO.

Sounds good.

If I were you, I would definitely inspect the bodywork closely, look at all the sheetmetal, under the carpet, inside the fenders etc and see if there has been shoddy repair. The PPI should take care of the drivetrain inspections. Ask if they use a paintmeter.

Good luck with the purchase. I agree the pricing is reasonable, unless there's a red flag above.

You and others have mentioned getting a PPI, and regarding what SCadaddle previously mentioned, make sure that your PPI includes a cylinder leakage test (aka - leakdown test) and a visual inspection of the exhaust side, head studs (lower rocker covers have to be removed). This will cost you more, but will be well worth it based upon reading your posts in this thread.

I don't understand where Carfax gets its information on this car. As far as I know, none of the US DMV's will recognize the WPOZZZ... VIN. They only recognize a USA VIN. So, how does the system track this? In Massachusetts, a gray market car gets a substitute title with a tag from the State Police. The car is duly titled, but not under its original, Euro VIN.

So my first thought is to doubt the Carfax information, and just judge the car on condition.

There’s nothing stopping anyone from entering this or any other VIN into the system and reporting anything on it, in which case Carfax would then have a record of it. I’m not sure what you mean by DMVs not recognizing a WPOZZZ VINed car. If you turn in a title to register a car you just bought, they will print out a title with that same VIN on it, regardless of the state I would think. The VIN isn’t going to constantly change when the car gets sold back and forth between different states that either recognize or not recognize the VIN. I think you’re getting this conflated with the fact that these models weren’t originally sold here, but they can still be titled here under their original VIN. Let’s not forget that they were ALL born with the WPOZZZ VINs, it’s just the US models that got reVINed before they got shipped to the US, which were then titled here with their new VIN.

It’s clear something major most likely happened to this car at some point in its life due to the missing side markers. You don’t normally change out both front fenders for a minor accident.

Based largely on that data-point right there, I decided this morning to pass. Clearly, the car had major accident repair for which the owner has no records or details. That's too big a risk for me to take at this stage in my life.

Thank you all VERY MUCH for your help. As always, Pelican forums have proven a great resource! That side marker spotting is a perfect case-in-point.

Back to looking for something better in my price range. In case anyone finds an SC-993 911 manual coupe for $35k or less in good condition, let me know! Thanks.

^^^ Not that it matters now. But until you look at the car these are all assumptions.

As others are worried about the engine I was going to suggest getting the car on a lift and seeing how much of the front pan was replaced.
This car could have been totaled and pieced together for resale.
Or whoever repainted it just didn't like the side markers and filled them in. If I were trying to hide damage the side markers would be there.

No such thing as a good condition 993 Coupe 6spd for $35k or less. Just a heads up. And definitely not a 964 Coupe 5spd. Finding a sorted SC will be your best bet if you want a coupe. Might be able to find a good driver 3.2 Carrera but those go quick at that price. GLWS

Yes, that is precisely what I've been seeing. I've been searching hard for the last couple months. I always include the 964's and 993's in my search strings, knowing it's a million to one shot. It's looking like I may have to choose b/w a sketchy-condition SC/3.2 coupe or a good-condition SC/3.2 Targa. I've always wanted a coupe, but a Targa might win simply because I can afford one that I won't worry about mechanically at that price.

Just noticed this 82 SC that although high mileage appears to be very well sorted by an enthusiast. It was part of an email I received from Stoddards. Scroll past the 951 (944 Turbo). Top of your budget, who knows. If it's still available might be a good one to look at.

Meh, that Pelican won't let us link to a competitor. Should be easy to find, just look under cars for sale at Stoddards in Ohio. Looks like the car is in Dallas Texas.

Thanks! That's a really cool car. I've contacted the seller. The price would have to come down some for me to jump, but it does sound like a really fun car to drive.

Just heard back. Car sold months ago.

I need to check this forum more often. I’m local to this car too and apparently was the person that told the owner it was a euro market car.

I wish I had seen this thread before buying a carfax too! I tried researching the importer tovtry to determine when it was imported (thinking if in 1985, mileage is accurate, but if in 1990, probably not).

Apparently Neal Rayburn is/was based in LA and made slant nose kits at one time in the 1980s. I think he’s still around under the name NR Automotive. Just throwing this out there, but perhaps he imported it and made it a slant nose, which was later undone using US spec fenders. Obviously just speculation, but a possibility if the car is otherwise clean.

Definitely an interesting possibility! Unfortunately, the current owner has no paperwork with the car for anything done back then, including both the importing and whatever explains the salvage and title-wash. I encouraged him to get a good PPI, with particular attention to any work done on the body and on the pan underneath. That might explain some of what's up.

All good till you go to sell it. Buy a salvage title car, you own it. Texas was one of the patron states of odometer fraud too. 60 Minutes did an expose over 25 years ago. You can probably find it if interested. Documentation is your friend. Stories don't count.