I don't get the price swings
 

I've owned several Porsches before, but never an air cooled. So I'm a noob in this market.

I've been looking around for one and the prices seem to be all over the place. I'll see an '88 coupe with 90K miles for under $40K and then see the famous one (infamous?) on BAT that went for $60K with 100K miles. Huh?

Yeah I get condition makes a difference. But w're talking a 7 or 8 /10 condition vs a 9/10 condition and a $20-30K price difference. Is a shinier paint job really worth an extra $20-30K?

And the '88s are one of many examples where I'll see two almost similar versions, similar miles, similar condition with a 20-30% difference in price.It just seems so random and I never quite know if what I'm looking at is way under or way over priced.

Is it just me? Am I missing the obvious?

I think no matter what the car is, it's worth what someone is willing to pay.
If you look at a car and can't see the 60k price tag it's probably not for you.

BAT prices are all over the place, not really to be trusted as what something is really worth outside of BAT. I have seen many cars sell on BAT for higher than the owner was asking on Rennlist or Pelican and the car was sitting for months unsold.

We had a customer buy sight unseen an 88 with low indicated miles. It was a great price. But up on the lift revealed a strap of metal holding a crack together with a sheet metal screw and JB weld. Leaking after about 1K miles so not so great a price after all....

The newer the aircooled Porsche, the more reliable and consistent pricing will be. Don't trust any odometer pre 1980. Get yourself a 993. Excellent reliability, modern yet vintage, and the best looking 911 ever made.

Color can have a huge impact on price on these cars, sometimes a $10k difference at times. If you are new and don't know the premium colors you might see two similar cars with wildly different prices and no "explanation" for it.

Receipts are another thing. A car with 75k claimed miles but no service records will sell for less than a 100k mi car with every oil change since new on paper.

These are just two examples of why. There are many more. It's complicated and takes forever to figure out. And even then there are still wild variances that make no sense.

BAT cars almost always bring more than ebay or even big house auction houses. I think it's transparency with BAT. People get to ask many questions, along with reading posters comments. People new to the game go on BAT and read about how someone owned the same car years ago and it was wonderful. It makes them ready to buy. I've seen cars there where people will ask the seller questions about the cars options, or last oil change. But for instance the 89-91 models, the seller doesn't mention, and the buyer doesn't know to ask, has the dual mass flywheel failed, has the car leaked 5 quarts of oil through the heads, has the distributor belt broke and been updated?? So to the question of why is one car so much more, it can be color, options, rarity, or that the seller had expenses he's trying to recoup through selling to you. IMO

Buying a a car sight unseen...my brain doesn't compute that :)

It's my wiring I guess, but dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a car based on a few pictures and the word of a complete stranger, is nuts, Maybe if it was discounted heavily, to account for the additional risk. But it's the opposite, BAT sells at a premium. Each to their own.

Matt, I 90% agree with this, but where the explanation comes in on the wild variances is bidders' egos. You'll sometimes see a series of last minute bids between two deep pocket dreamers who -- as Vaive says -- trust everything in the write up and images.

There was an infamous Amelia auction car 16 months ago: 73 T Targa bid to $313,500 (!) That took two nutcases. And made one super happy seller!

Yeah, there’s no accounting for auctions that end around beer:30. Get a couple in a guy and he’s just hitting the bid button.

Condition, Color & Maintenance make huge differences in pricing. Subtle rare colors will drastically increase prices at least by 25% or more than a equally nice say "Guards Red" example. Porsche people flip out on rare colors.

Don't worry about mileage on these cars too much, unless you are looking for a collectors example. Find one that has been documented, maintained and taking care of by an enthusiast. Condition, Condition, Condition is key. A 3.2 top end rebuild at a reputable shop is easily $12k - $15k where I live. Best of luck with your search and welcome to the PP forum.

Also I wouldn't waste your time trying to hunt down the steal of a deal because there tons of resellers out there ready to pounce on any decent underpriced air-cooled that hits the market. You usually don't even have time to set up a PPI on those cars or let alone see them in person.

People who own nice cars and know what they are ask a premium. When a buyer investigates (I like the Ronald Reagan line: “trust but verify”) and confirms the condition, the higher price is validated.

Setting up a suspension after 30 years or degradation takes expertise and money to be done right. An experienced buyer will know within seconds of driving if the car is “right.”

Starters, alternators, axle shafts, window regulators, caliper rebuilds all add up to significant expense. As others have stated, if records exist, there is much value there.

An engine rebuild or refresh from a known a respected expert, again with records, adds value. A knowledgeable buyer will know within moments of starting a car if the engine sounds “right.”

You can pick a cheap one up online anytime. Be my guest. Budget for some major expenses is all I can say.

There really is no deal when it comes to the aircool cars. Pay me now or pay me later is the name of the game. It really depends on what kind of buyer you are and what kind of condition of car you are looking for. If you want to buy, drive and show then be prepare to extend the crocodile arms a little deeper into your pockets. If you want to buy, repair/restore then drive, the wallet will take hits in increments (never add..lol). There are some cars that have been very well maintained but may not be show ready. Those will probably be fairly priced but will need cosmetic attention during ownership. Not a problem for many. Either way it’s journey that most of us enjoy.......and hate..lol

early 911 is the only car i have that the price goes up once negotiations are going on..

It's stupid. They aren't rare. I liked this whole scene better when they weren't all worth a ton of money, it was way more fun when they were just strange VWs with two extra cylinders.

Ignorance confirmed.

K, well consider this idiot happier before the price explosion happened.

the only constant is change.

the market has changed, they always do.

the cars haven't. the same thing that got you into them is still there.

cliché, sure. but happiness is where you find it. it should still be there, the cars are just more expensive. does it really somehow make them less enjoyable?

shame if it does...

These cars are bought with a lot of emotion, so yeah color plays a huge role.
Many people have not bought 25 year plus old car before and need stuff to build confidence so receipts, maybe a dealer, BAT peanut galley approval, a well written ad, great pictures etc. seems to raise the price a lot.
And then there is subtle difference in 911's, transmissions, fuel systems, brakes, etc. that vary the price., but that is documentable and is to quantify.

Most of it seems hard to justify with logic why there is such a difference in price on these cars. I pretty much gave up.

***bro buttmunching***, butt dayum well said!

The only thing that is "less enjoyable" for me now is the rise in parts costs, butt honestly, I don't know how much that has actually risen since I have always considered the cost of Porsche parts to be some sort of sick joke.

Used 3.2s used to be 5-8k.

Now those same used motors are 12-15k. For a used motor that doesn't even make 300hp.

Think of how much power you could make with a $12,000 LS1. It's ridiculous.

but it’s an LS1.

don’t get me wrong, we’ve got one going in my brothers ‘67 camaro in the shop as we speak. that car is going to be sick.

but if that’s yer gig, just buy a chevy, right?

and driving and old chevy ain’t the same experience as driving an old 911, HP be damned (sorry ronnie)...

How much of that is labor versus Parts? When I came to this game we charged $80/hr to rebuild engines and gearboxes. Now most of my dealers are up around $120-150/hr for the same work. That alone will significantly bump the value of a good used engine.

Yeah I know, which is why I own one, but should a USED 230hp now 200ish hp 911 engine cost 12-15k?

I mean you can build a stout LS1 for 3-5k. Should it really be 4-5X MORE, but produce less than half the horsepower?

It's ridiculous. It was silly pricing 5-10 years ago, but now it has gone full retard.

When you make a million of something, economies of scale allow you to run much lower margins and much better costing than when you are only making a few hundred or thousand. I get that song and dance all the time with my LSDs. "But I can buy a Ford 9" LSD for under $1000. How come yours is triple that?" Get a Mustang is my answer.

I'm the opposite. I want nothing to do with dealers. Maybe a legit one like a Porsche dealer, but a no-name, corner lot type place? That just screams RUN AWAY FAST to me.

Buying a 25+ year old car (and in many cases 40+ year old) is full of risk no matter what. They'll will need a lot of money constantly put into them no matter how pristine condition they're in upon purchase. There's no easy button on this one.

markets are made by things being available and someone willing to pay a certain price for said thing based on what is currently available in said market.

that whole supply and demand thing.

get off my lawn!

well played...

Yep, I definitely think that the costs associated with a power plant that doesn't make much power (in ummodifid, n/a trim) is beyond absurd (the turbo pricing as well, but at least you are getting some power in exchange for bending way over).

One other disappointment in the pricing rise, that I didn't think of yesterday, is that in the current market, I could not afford the price of admission - not by a long shot.

After three years of owning and driving a Porsche I pulled out the Mustang after a year of not driving it. It's a well built car with weight savings everywhere. 5.1L Aluminmum block 360WHP, T56 6 Speed, Griggs GR40 suspension, fiberglass, Alcon Brakes, Magnesium Speedlines, ect.
The car feels slow and heavy now. I can make it do whatever I want. Super predictable to drive and play with the power. But now that I am comfortable with the feel of the Porsche there is no going back.
Even if I put a modern Coyote engine in the Mustang, and upped the HP, the feel of the car won't change. It would just spin the tires further.

And my son who loved the Mustang more now prefers the Porsche.

smart boy you got there, derrick...

Germany vs. USA cars
 

The light feel of the 911 and handling on the road is something modern cars have trouble achieving. With all the safety features of today; we will never go back to light little cars. Even the new 991 is huge and heavy. Enjoy the simple 911 of yester year

I disagree... there will be a revolution in automotive engineering in the near future. Cars (especially expensive, high performance sports cars) will eventually be built from fully carbon fiber infused with graphiene. Packaging of electric drive trains will become much lighter as well. Just look to F1. Our cars will be built the same way in maybe 10 years? When cars were invented they simply bolted gasoline engines to horse carriages. The way we build electric cars today is kind of the same.