Ouch ...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/996366-915-shifting-3.html#post11308375

Driving a 915.

How does a 964 ownership compare to the earlier cars? Im a bit younger than most here, so 964 does it for me as my poster car. Now looking to buy one and it seems $60-80k minimum... that is in my budget, but I cant help but compare across to something like a 3.2 G50, since 964s seem to be in such low stock. I could go buy a 3.2 any day of the week vs trying to find a 964.

And if anyone knows of a nice driver 964 please pm....

Is this the infamous shifting vid?


https://youtu.be/AmOwHoJlK14

Finding a nice 964 (particularly a C2 coupe, Manual) is hard enough, purchasing it can be even more so (competition with other prospective buyers).

There's many more 3.2 cars to choose from, the G-50 cars are a touch more refined than the earlier 3.2 mostly due to the shifting. The 964 will have even more creature comforts over the earlier cars (and better AC). I own a 3.2 and also a 993 which is similar to the 964 but has even more refinement, in the rear suspension mostly.

I would concentrate on finding a well sorted car in either model. Hopefully one that has a comprehensive service history and no (major) accident damage. Get a Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) before you close the deal.

Best of luck!

Today I was on a run with a mate in a 600hp M6. While the massive power allowed him to catch up on a heavily curved road my 200hp represented well and made him work.

It made me think of what makes these 911s so entertaining... it’s the handling. The lighter the car the better they dance. The answer to the great debate of 911s for me is usable power, lightness and handling or what I call the “theory of R”.

Chapman’s theory - add lightness...

My 915 needs a rebuild!! Thanks for sharing the video.

yup. listen to that poor motor...

Lightness>horsepower

Don’t buy a 964. I bought a 964 in 2011 for $18k, and even at that cheap price, it just never did it for me. It just felt heavy, sluggish and cumbersome to drive. And hated the chunky bumpers! Now they are ridiculously expensive. Yes, the AC works great in a 964, but so does the upgraded AC system in my SC. So who cares. My SC drives so much better! It feels so much lighter and quicker and the feel of the steering is so much better than the oppressive and heavy feel of the power assist steering of a 964. Get yourself a well sorted 3.2 or SC for $10-20k less. You won’t regret it. If you really have to have a modern aircooled, get a 993. I had one of those also. Better looking, faster, and much better driving experience than the 964.

My friend Raj had a 964 Cup which was lighter and was fitted with a short geared transmission..... it was quick unlike a standard C2 which to your point feels heavy.

993s seem to be cheaper too... but better looking? Im not so sure on that one.

Really? You’re kidding, right? The 993 may be one of the best looking sports cars ever produced, much less, the best looking Porsche ever produced. The 964 is a chunky, heavy looking and armor clad version of it’s predecessors. It’s rear looks like it was made to float.

Just as a car, I probably have to agree with you at least from most angles (head on is so much blob https://phidelt.wixsite.com/c4s97?pgid=jbleewrj-e2bb452a-7bb1-4a6d-a2fc-87e861799c71) but as a 911, I like the look of the 964 better, at least when comparing NBs.

Funny, I think it’s more side on with the rake of the headlights. Seem to “recede” too quickly toward the floor. Not sure there’s a better looking car in arctic (I think) silver and the hips are perfect

993 feels big.... TT is the best iteration

I wouldn’t argue with you about the 993’s headlights. That being said, when you look at the 993 from front to back, its shape is the most proportional looking 911 and sports car that I have ever seen. And I hate when people compare the 997 to the 993 stylistically. The 997 loses that gorgeous front to back proportionality that only the 993 can claim.

Agreed. The only one I’ve ever had a desire for is a GT2 evo. They don’t really scratch my itch for what I consider a vintage Porsche. Arse for every seat and all that.

Just got back from a nice 60 miler with my daughter. Well paved vacant country roads with some nice high speed curves and some good straights where one can blow the gunk out. 75 degree day, perfect for topless driving. I love my 3.2.

If you are in the market test drive everything you can. These cars are all similar yet different at the same time. If these cars are well setup they all feel good. A poorly setup 911 will feel heavy and sluggish. It doesn't matter what vintage. I owned many different 911's they all felt different and since driving them for over 40 years I will always put the 964 on the top of my list but none of these cars are of value IMO in stock form. They all need suspension upgrades and proper alignments or they drive like crap. 9 out of 10 911's I drive or work on have alignments all over the place and the owners have no idea.

I agree 964's have gotten stupid expensive although with the limited quantity remaining they will probably prove to be most valuable in the future. More and more each day are being chopped up for backdates and other conversions. I am guilty of this myself.

I don't think there is a better all around 911 than the 964 it is easy to work on and has endless possibility upgrades.

Looks are subjective. If you love the 993 then that is what you should buy. I personally find them hideous unless they are the RSR or GT2 variants. I have no issue with the 964's bumpers as much as I do the afterthought of the bellows bumpers from 74 to 89.

At the end of the day you don't drive the looks but the car. IMO that is what is most important so find a well sorted, mechanically sound car that is within your budget and expect to spend some coin no matter what vintage.

the 964 situation is a bit of a paradox.
Singer bought them all up - because they were cheap - nobody wanted them. the "ugly duckling" ...... in the day.
now they are rare and expensive - because Singer bought them all. :)

It took Singer almost a decade to buy and build 100 cars. The Singer effect is real, but it’s not because they made them rare, it’s because they made them more desirable.

Singer only has a few hundred cars at most, 130 built so far. Not enough to move the market imo. Unloved for years probably led too high attrition overall, much higher impact on value.

Just curious, when are Porsche collectors in CA. (and other marque collectors) going to revolt over having to meet stringent smog requirements on cars that are older than 35 plus years?

Here we go again. :eek: Yes Both Matt and ShopCat have valid points but I will expand as I have nothing else to do right now. ;)

The 964 started the upward move before the average person even heard of singer. Although they did bring notoriety to the 964 soon after people started to realize the potential of them. I have been buying these for coming up on 20 years now and own 4.

Yes these were unloved for a while but people started to realize the ugly duckling effect and the beauty of the old school looks and modern tub and suspension was a vast improvement over earlier air-cooled 911's.

There were only 5106 +/- a few including C2/ C4's and tip coupes imported. (this doesn't include the RSA, turbo or other limited production coupe variants) So right there it decreases the number of C2 Coupes to around half of all coupes imported with a fair number being tips. So we can split the C2 from the C4's as they usually have a different buyer. That is unless they become a singer or are converted as I have done to 2 of mine. Because they were unloved and cheap it was a good source of income for some as people parted them out by the hundreds for a long time. Blackbyrd here on Pelican was parting a new one out nearly weekly for along time. These were also a great and inexpensive way to get into club racing and or DE so many were turned into track rats. Very similar scenario as the 914. Another unloved Porsche that was easy to part out or track. Then a lot of them were crashed and crushed and many had mechanical issues that exceeded the value of the car at the time and were just abandoned to sit and rot. I can't tell you how many I have come across that fit that description.

Because of this the supply of 964 coupes has become quite low. Those like myself with pristine examples will never part with them or if I do, have a long list of interested buyers at premium pricing. What most people see on the market are the cars with needs that have been poorly fixed and or need lots of TLC or are the pristine car that has been sitting in someones garage and hasn't been touched in years now looking for all the money.

There might be more than half of the 5100 coupes still in existence but I doubt it and when you divide these into C2 manuals, C2 tips or C4's how many of each are there remaining in the US and how many people looking?

This is why they are so hard to find these days very little supply and huge demand.

I had an '84 Carrera and an '88. The 915 never bothered me, and it still doesn't. I sold them both and got rather involved with 356s. I hope I sold my last 356C at a peak, I put it in Hemmings and got my asking price.

Missing Porsches, I returned to the fold and bought an '80 SC Targa. It was "cheap and cheerful," in great shape with 116,000 mi. Compared to the 3.2, I find the 3.0 to be much livelier and more willing to wind to redline, pulling like a train the whole time.

Back to the OP's original question, the market sets the price.

The 87-89 cars are usually the focus of new enthusiasts looking to get into an aircooled 911 but want the most updated experience but also have deeper pockets to compete for a limited available supply.

Up until the last few years, the SC's were the entry point cars for those looking for a decent driver in the 35-45k range. Those days are now gone.

...You could spend all day discussing these trends.

The bottom line is that all G body cars of similar condition, color, and mileage are beginning to sell at similar prices. Is there really that much of a difference between 70k for an SC Coupe and 85k for a G50 3.2 Coupe? 17% seems pretty minor when you are talking about these prices.

Back when good condition SC's were in the high 30's, low 40's there was a big disparity when compared to G50 3.2's that would commonly sell in the high 60's, low 70's. There is still a bit of disparity but it is closer now than it ever has been and will likely keep getting closer.

My prediction is that over the next few years we will see 100k+ averages on all of these cars with small 10-15% differences between certain years with everything else being equal.

Those holding out waiting for prices to come down... With the combination of inflation along with the limited supply and strong demand, I don't foresee this changing. If you want one of these cars buy it now. Today is likely the cheapest it will be for the foreseeable future.

And this was a big part of my initial post: all else being equal in terms of condition, all stock based gbody cars will eventually end up at similar points with obvious give and take here and there.

I’ll offer a different take. Prices of g50 cars are reaching their break point in terms of demand elasticity. Will continue to go up but at decreasing increments as the buyer there sees more value in the 915 cars. That will drive convergence until the market can stomach a step shift in the highest coveted g-body cars (rightly or wrongly, the g50). That will step shift and create a vacuum for the 915s to fill.

Is there any value to be found in the narrow g body cars? Personally, I love them more and more and wish I was into one without a matching numbers engine / gear box. It’s probably where I’d go next if there is value there.

Then my next question would be: At what point in time do the gbodies become so classic, that the tranny differences are obsolete when it comes to monetary value?

2021.

Within any model range, there are always certain years, trims, transmissions, colors, etc that are preferred. This is also true of cars worth way more than classic 911’s.

While I believe prices will begin to get closer and closer between all g body cars, there will still be a premium placed on certain high demand examples.