Trying to make sense of the overall Porsche market

[mbintx]

So, I’m sitting on a 964 and thinking of selling and trying something a bit more daily driver friendly. I have a few models in mind and have been watching the market, but it seems that (unfortunately ) most of options I’m looking at are on fire:

997.2 manual—prices going crazy
997 TT manual—prices going crazy
981 GT4–prices creeping up
981 GTS—prices unreasonably high

I’m also seeing the SC and Carerras going for big numbers. And it appears 993s are back in demand big time. All the while, I’m seeing 964 prices holding or moving up slightly. So it feels like I’m selling my 964 in a flat market and buying my replacement (see above) at top of market. Is this reality or just early onset buyer’s remorse?

[ShopCat]

964s are also on the rise, maybe not as crazy as those others right now but thats cause they already did that the last few years... I know because Im trying to buy one so.... pm info please if you decide to go through with the sale. Im looking for a C2

[Matt Monson]

Buy a 997.1. Ims is chicken little and irrelevant. The price delta between .1 and .2 is founded on fear and ignorance not reality. Less than a 2% failure rate.

Or buy a non-GT4 Cayman S or GTS.

[deckard]

i have one if you're looking to buy. $75K US.
it's a '92 C2 five speed guards red coupe with original paint and factory sports seats. 100K miles. the car is up in ontario just outside of ottawa.

[walt]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Buy a 997.1. Ims is chicken little and irrelevant. The price delta between .1 and .2 is founded on fear and ignorance not reality. Less than a 2% failure rate.

Or buy a non-GT4 Cayman S or GTS.

Maybe less of an issue than IMS but anyone know how prevalent bore scoring is on the 997.1?

[Cobalt]

The market won't slow until some normalcy returns. My local Porsche rep told me that only 40 992 coupes were available as of last month for the entire country. This has lead to many buying whatever they can to fill the void. Dealers are paying premiums for any of the cars listed especially manual trans cars.

I have 4 964's including a turbo and a 981 cayman S and 981 Boxster GTS. I have to admit both are great cars but the GTS does offer some advantages over the S. Both have cobb port and custom tune with soul exhaust and factory Sport muffler. Sport chrono etc. The GTS has a few extras and is louder in general than the S although they pull quite strong but not quite as fast as my 964 turbo which easily will gain on them. Although the turbo is a slug off the line in comparison.

I was contemplating selling my GTS since the market is quite high for them right now but with less than a 1000 imported and very few being manual trans cars I am having a hard time letting it go. I don't think the new cars are getting better. They are more capable but I find them a bit boring to drive.

IMO the 981S/GTS is the closest feeling ride today to a 964. Especially capable with the X73 package. Different in so many ways but offers that similar visceral experience and is far easier to daily than a 964.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by walt

Maybe less of an issue than IMS but anyone know how prevalent bore scoring is on the 997.1?

It’s user based. You’ve got to shop the seller. If they idle the car to warm it up they are washing the cylinders and contaminating the oil. One must get in and drive the car. And change the oil on time.

[ShopCat]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Buy a 997.1. Ims is chicken little and irrelevant. The price delta between .1 and .2 is founded on fear and ignorance not reality. Less than a 2% failure rate.

Or buy a non-GT4 Cayman S or GTS.

.2 looks better though... .1 is soft looking

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by ShopCat

.2 looks better though... .1 is soft looking

The aftermarket is awash with items to fix that. Use some of the money saved to rice it out.

[vick]

Values aren’t going up, it’s that the value of the dollar is going down. And everyone is rushing to assets to preserve what value they can - houses, cars, planes, etc. Prices are shooting up across the board, especially so with assets in limited or diminishing supply.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by vick

Values aren’t going up, it’s that the value of the dollar is going down. And everyone is rushing to assets to preserve what value they can - houses, cars, planes, etc. Prices are shooting up across the board, especially so with assets in limited or diminishing supply.

Oh god, we about to get parfed.

[Glenfield]

There are inflationary expectations at play in illiquid assets bc the cash printing press is on and savings rates are high.

You don't see inflation in the broader basket of goods that go into CPI because the supply chain is so much more efficient and labor has far less bargaining power in a global market. You don't have that for things like classic cars (given they aint making more) or houses (supply chain totally broken there and can't offshore labor to Asia).

I admit, I find it harder to understand the huge run-up in value for 997s. Porsche is making so many cars and making them in manual. So is it only their less portly stature and mezgerness? I know it's a kick arse car and probably as close to the air cooled as we're likely to get in watercooled but that's more abstract than air v water and finite supply.

[vick]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Oh god, we about to get parfed.

Was that English?

[creaturecat]

Originally Posted by vick

Values aren’t going up, it’s that the value of the dollar is going down. And everyone is rushing to assets to preserve what value they can - houses, cars, planes, etc. Prices are shooting up across the board, especially so with assets in limited or diminishing supply.

i agree. printing money with wild abandon.

[ShopCat]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

There are inflationary expectations at play in illiquid assets bc the cash printing press is on and savings rates are high.

You don't see inflation in the broader basket of goods that go into CPI because the supply chain is so much more efficient and labor has far less bargaining power in a global market. You don't have that for things like classic cars (given they aint making more) or houses (supply chain totally broken there and can't offshore labor to Asia).

I admit, I find it harder to understand the huge run-up in value for 997s. Porsche is making so many cars and making them in manual. So is it only their less portly stature and mezgerness? I know it's a kick arse car and probably as close to the air cooled as we're likely to get in watercooled but that's more abstract than air v water and finite supply.

Isn't 997.2 to 991 a pretty big jump in size? The only 991 I want is 911R.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by vick

Was that English?

Yes. Politics and religion forum.

The OP asked some very specific questions. Anything about printing money or everything that is now following is off topic and really more appropriate for parf.

[G450X]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

There are inflationary expectations at play in illiquid assets bc the cash printing press is on and savings rates are high.

You don't see inflation in the broader basket of goods that go into CPI because the supply chain is so much more efficient and labor has far less bargaining power in a global market. You don't have that for things like classic cars (given they aint making more) or houses (supply chain totally broken there and can't offshore labor to Asia).

I admit, I find it harder to understand the huge run-up in value for 997s. Porsche is making so many cars and making them in manual. So is it only their less portly stature and mezgerness? I know it's a kick arse car and probably as close to the air cooled as we're likely to get in watercooled but that's more abstract than air v water and finite supply.

It’s interesting that you mention the 997 chassis price “run up.” The 997 GT3 and turbo (Mezger engine) prices are somewhat understandable, being factory built hot rods...

My take on the “normal” 997 is that they look and drive great (more compact and hydraulic steering) and the fact that new 911’s are prohibitively expense for most of us, are the main driving force behind the current pricing.

The 997.2 received many upgrades, mainly electronics and the non IMS DI engine, but was sold during the economic meltdown, so they didn’t sell many which compounds the supply/demand equation and (IMO) skews pricing. I have a friend who’s currently looking for a 997.2 and he’s going nuts. I advised another friend about 5 years ago to buy a manual 997.2 - he did and thanks me all the time.

A few years ago I had planned on buying a 997.2 GT3, but now even a higher mileage a 997.1 GT3 is probably out of reach for me. There are far worse problems to deal with! My new GT3 substitute might be something like an S54 powered M coupe or roadster.

I will probably continue to upgrade my old SC’s chassis, engine, and transmission to satisfy my Porsche needs, it’s still great fun, and I’m very glad I picked it up several years ago when they were undervalued...

[Spine911]

I strongly recommend the 6 speed Targa 4S for the 997.1 (aside from the GT and Turbo ) . Rare , low production numbers (1,761 units), IMO the best iteration for the Targa top which successfully combined both hardtop and open top experience, Wide Turbo body.

I managed to acquire a T4S 8yrs ago with a replaced (upgraded) Porsche factory approved engine replacement with the latest iteration and updates. It’s been a headache free, bullet proof engine experience ��

[Matt Monson]

^this.

[vick]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Yes. Politics and religion forum.

The OP asked some very specific questions. Anything about printing money or everything that is now following is off topic and really more appropriate for parf.

Got it, not English, forum shorthand

My comments were neither political nor religious, they were economic. My point to the original poster was that there’s upward pressure on anything of value right now. Maybe some nuanced differences between models but on the balance the whole hobby/asset class (depending on how you consider it) is rising. Trying to decipher between niche models is splitting hairs