911s Now More for Track?

hytem · 06:17 PM

Looking at the evolution of the 911 with the trend towards increasing power, weight and streamlining to reduce drag, I wonder if the car hasn't evolved more into a track car as opposed to a street car. I'm thinking more of the later models the last 10 years or so--all the luxury notwithstanding.

I don't know what the percentage of owners are out there who race or track vs purely street , but I would guess the percentage of the former is very high--maybe >50%. I suspect a lot of the high cost of the 911 has more to do with the track than the street--even with the luxury items. Granted, it's always been expensive for the speed, but nowadays the power seems to be far beyond what's useful on the street .

I own an '82 SC purchased recently which is a lot of fun driving in the country on scenic roads--which is about all the driving I've done with it to date. It has peak torque, 180 ft-lbs or so, in the 4000 rpm range, which is ideal for fun in the country. And the classic look is great--fun at shows. I just wonder what I would do with much more power. My guess is you really have to go on the track.

I thought I would throw this out to those of you who know a lot more about these cars than I do.

RaceProEngineer · 09:08 AM

hytem,

I believe Porsche's continuous increase in power and some aero refinements is not any effort to make their cars more track worthy (although that may be a SLIGHT side effect). Rather, it is in response to pressure from BMW, Honda, Corvette, etc., where these other manufacturers' production (road) cars have superior power, aero, and handling, AND cost a fraction of the new P-Cars.

All one has to do is spend a few minutes behind the wheel of a purpose-built race car, then behind the wheel of, let's say, a 996, to dispel forever the notion that Porsche production cars are thinly-disguised racers. That which appears to be exceptional capability on the road becomes almost an embarassment when one enters the track. There is a world of difference!

Ed LoPresti

hytem · 08-29-2006, 10:53 AM

Thanks, Ed. I know nothing about the track, though I've read here that many 911 owners put there cars on the track--and I know some from the local PCA club. Not just the newer models, but older ones in the 70s and 80s. Remarkable these older cars can still perform on the track.

No doubt the cars built specifically for racing are a different animal from the production cars.I guess what I'm asking is how all that increased power in the recent production models manifests itself in street driving. I don't know what all that extra power is doing for you on the street --aside from matching the power numbers of BMW et al. I'm sure the later production models have improvements in handling, brakes, etc, as well as the creature comforts--which may be sufficient enough.

racer · 08-29-2006, 02:37 PM

One reason for the ever increasing amount of power is the ever increasing amount of weight of the cars!

An SC has 180-200hp depending on year and state of tune. They only had to push 2600lb (for a minimal equipped Euro delivery car) to 2800 for a fully laden US car. (

Just ahead 16-20 years and a 996 is some 350-500lbs heavier depending on options/equipment. That is a significant weight gain (yes, much of it is in the name of safety, but still). A horsepower improvement is a necessity to make the car a viable option. Who wants a 200hp, 3100lb 911? not me. Not Porsche. They make sports cars and RACE cars. Image is very important.

The other side of the wieght gain are considerable gains in comfort for "street" use. AC that will actually cool the car; ABS and other computer controls that make the car easier and safer to drive. Faster too.

Some will argue that it doesn't matter if you have 200hp or 500hp if you spend your time in rush hour traffic and that is true. But enjoying the car away from traffic is why one lusts for a Porsche anyway

hytem · 08-29-2006, 05:40 PM

Racer,

I believe the power to weight ratio is higher in the late model 911s vs the SC--so the power increase offsets the weight increase.

But there are other techy advantages in the later 911 models--ABS, better creature comforts, tuned suspensions, etc.

I just want to know how to use all that extra power on the street. Maybe you're not buying the extra power unless you're on the track--you're buying all the other things.

racer · 08-29-2006, 06:24 PM

You cant use all that power (of a new 911) on the street and still hold on to your liscence

. To be honest, even your "little" SC can be driven quite fast on the track.

The ingredient is the driver.

Once you track drive and become quite proficient, you will realize that only in very few instances (say, highway merging) do you even need the 200hp of an SC.

But track driving is more than just brute power, it is also handling (which the new cars have in spades due to large tires, brakes and computer controls) and SKILL of the driver that make a car fast.

Once the skills are learned and practiced sucessfully, then you truly appreciate all the engineering that goes into a Porsche, regardless of vintage/power/model etc.

A 911 is a fantastic street car even if you don't (can't) maximize it on the street.

hytem · 08-30-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by racer
You cant use all that power (of a new 911) on the street and still hold on to your liscence . To be honest, even your "little" SC can be driven quite fast on the track.

The ingredient is the driver.

Once you track drive and become quite proficient, you will realize that only in very few instances (say, highway merging) do you even need the 200hp of an SC.

But track driving is more than just brute power, it is also handling (which the new cars have in spades due to large tires, brakes and computer controls) and SKILL of the driver that make a car fast.

Once the skills are learned and practiced sucessfully, then you truly appreciate all the engineering that goes into a Porsche, regardless of vintage/power/model etc.

A 911 is a fantastic street car even if you don't (can't) maximize it on the street.

Just got back from a nice drive in the country. About 25 miles.
10 days off (largely because of rain), and it starts right up--ready to go in 20 sec. Get it up to 4K+ rpm and use all the gears.
This is a 2500 mile per year car--registered as classic. Low insurance rates.
If I track it, I figure my maintenance will go way up on it(?), and I might have to change the insurance.
I would like to go to the track sometime, and see what's happening, maybe take one of those driving courses. Just bought Vic Elford's book on High Performance Driving. You really do have to shift those synchro gears slowly and smoothly.

But I get just as much fun tooting around the country using the gears, and feeling the road. Have had a few sportscars, and that's all I've ever done. Porsche drivers seem to be a different breed, though. Lots of the PCA guys I know are trackers and racers. And work on their own cars. Quite a group.

racer · 08-30-2006, 11:44 AM

SC's are quite robust. Would your maintenance costs go up if you tracked? yes.. brake pads, brake fluid, more frequent oil changes and then the desire to improve the car take over

Not sure if your insurance would change much. I think my SC is pretty cheap to insure ($600/yr) and that's for full, normal coverage, not a limited "classics" coverage.

Plus, you don't have to go on the track, you could start by doing some SCCA Solo or PCA Autocross events. A nice safe way to explore your car without fear of guardrails or mountain drop offs, plus, you get a chance to go against the clock!

The downside is once you start to track/a-x it, country roads just aren't as much fun

hytem · 08-30-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by racer
SC's are quite robust. Would your maintenance costs go up if you tracked? yes.. brake pads, brake fluid, more frequent oil changes and then the desire to improve the car take over

Not sure if your insurance would change much. I think my SC is pretty cheap to insure ($600/yr) and that's for full, normal coverage, not a limited "classics" coverage.

Plus, you don't have to go on the track, you could start by doing some SCCA Solo or PCA Autocross events. A nice safe way to explore your car without fear of guardrails or mountain drop offs, plus, you get a chance to go against the clock!

The downside is once you start to track/a-x it, country roads just aren't as much fun

I'd be more concerned about engine wear and rebuilds. I have about 90K miles now and the engine seems in good shape. I don't know what all that high speed driving would do to engine wear and tear, valves, etc.

Your insurance sounds pretty low. I got a state farm quote of close to $900 for under 7500 miles. They tend to be expensive, and don't cover classic cars. My classic insurance is about $250.

racer · 08-30-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hytem
I'd be more concerned about engine wear and rebuilds. I have about 90K miles now and the engine seems in good shape. I don't know what all that high speed driving would do to engine wear and tear, valves, etc.

Your insurance sounds pretty low. I got a state farm quote of close to $900 for under 7500 miles. They tend to be expensive, and don't cover classic cars. My classic insurance is about $250.

As long as your car has had a few updates: the tensioners updated (to Carrera ones); Pop-off valve installed, Turbo valve covers (optional) the motor would be fine. SC motors are notorious for lasting "forever".. 200K miles is not unusual between rebuilds. My own SC has over 40K miles related to Track and Autocross use and still pulls strong!

Insurance will vary by State/region, use, driver etc. Porsche ownership is not always inexpensive, but the enjoyment of the cars far outweighs it!

hytem · 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by racer
As long as your car has had a few updates: the tensioners updated (to Carrera ones); Pop-off valve installed, Turbo valve covers (optional) the motor would be fine. SC motors are notorious for lasting "forever".. 200K miles is not unusual between rebuilds. My own SC has over 40K miles related to Track and Autocross use and still pulls strong!

Insurance will vary by State/region, use, driver etc. Porsche ownership is not always inexpensive, but the enjoyment of the cars far outweighs it!

The car has had the upgrades: Carrera tensioners and pop-off valve.Upgraded clutch. 20K road miles since '93, based on the tire receipts I have. It has a trickle charger, so it must have been stored part of the time. It's a stock car, in very good cosmetic shape. Southern car since new--rust-free. Turbo-look.

What I don't know is how much track it's had--though the 85 mph speedometer does not show any signs of being taken on and off regularly.

I'm guessing there had to have been some engine work done when the clutch and tensioners were upgraded?

Don't have too many records--it was a swap + flip--the price was right. I also think the original owners did a lot of their own work--from what records I have. Good carfax/state inspection.

The only issue I've had is an oil leak in the rear bearing shaft seal--an easy replacement. The WUR doesn't work properly in cold starting--but you can get around that by fast revving on startup.
No oil leaks at all now, and no smoke--which is impressive.

SandyI · 08-31-2006, 12:30 PM

My opinion is that the recent developments at Porsche are all about the street, not the track. Not only are the new 911's considerably more powerful than your SC, they're also safer in dozens of ways. And these safety systems are designed and built for the street, not the track. I'll bet at this point, tiptronics outsell 6-speeds. Even the recent reviews of the GT-3 RS all mention that while it's a devastating car on the track but it's just as comfortable driving on the street. Which sadly is where most of them will be driven.

In general, the majority of $100,000+ sports cars are purchased or leased by guys who use the car to impress their friends on Sundays after a round of golf at the country club valet pick-up. I'd guess the number of new Porsches put on the track would be less than 1%.

hytem · 08-31-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SandyI
My opinion is that the recent developments at Porsche are all about the street, not the track. Not only are the new 911's considerably more powerful than your SC, they're also safer in dozens of ways. And these safety systems are designed and built for the street, not the track. I'll bet at this point, tiptronics outsell 6-speeds. Even the recent reviews of the GT-3 RS all mention that while it's a devastating car on the track but it's just as comfortable driving on the street. Which sadly is where most of them will be driven.

In general, the majority of $100,000+ sports cars are purchased or leased by guys who use the car to impress their friends on Sundays after a round of golf at the country club valet pick-up. I'd guess the number of new Porsches put on the track would be less than 1%.

Sales are now approaching 100,000 cars, so I suspect you are right. As I recall, about 10,000 911SCs were made in '82, which was close to Porsche's total production. 911s now total about 30-40,000 ? cars of the total production, so perhaps it's a broader market. The 911 has always attracted the Hollywood and country club types, though, but maybe more nowadays. I think Porsche has clearly marketed their cars to broaden their appeal with the Cayenne and the Boxster/Cayman.

My '82 looks almost like it was handmade--only 4000 or so delivered to U.S. Wonder if the new ones have that look and quality--You may have to wait 20 years on them to see if they age as well!