value of 87-89 911's recently & this car in particular

[umfan866]

OK I have yet to buy a 911 but I have changed my
approach from trying to find one under 5k (could
only find junkers, rustboxes, or cars with no engine)
to maybe taking out a car loan, but getting a decent
3.2 87-89 between 15-20k.

Forbes recently did an article on how these cars are likely to go up in value in the future. However it appears that * today * despite Excellence magazine's bloated ratings and the Forbes article, sellers are having trouble getting the 18-20k they would like.

For example, there is a thread in Cars for Sale of one guy who has a nice 87 and has offers at 15-16, and is now down to 16.5. THere is a guy locally selling a blue 88 for 16.5 (but there are also similar cars 18.8 - 19/20k). A recent sales report in Excellence showed a guy getting an 87-89 for 16k and they thought that was a very good deal (I agree).

The reason I am asking has to do with a particular car I came
across today:

-87 Carrera 3.2 coupe, guards red/tan
-great paint(repainted at some point in original color)
no obvious dings/dents
-no dash cracks rips in the interior
-157,000 miles (cant remember exactly but between 150-200k
and the owner admits it is "higher mileage"--he used it as a daily)
-good care of the car by professional mechanics (in fact it was being display at my old mechanics shop, and my old mechanic says the car is solid)
-compression may be a little low on one cylinder as per the last
leakdown test before he bought it (but within range)
-things wrong are one button on power seat doesn't work, one spray nozzle clogged, A/C does not blow cold (but current owner doesn't really use it so never tried to have it recharged).

-The curent owner is a Porschephile and knows his stuff--he just
bought a 993. Price: 18k, he just lowered it from 20k a few days ago.

He knows his car is high mileage not a garage queen and more of a driver, but a really nice driver.

Anyway I feel like if I could get this car at 15k-16k that would
be a great, great deal. But at 18k I'm inclined to pass or look at the other car that's being advertised for 16.5k (which I should do in any case).

Your thoughts--on this car in particular and/or 87-89's in general.

[jorian]

I think $18K is high given the mileage. I'd pay $15K for the car as described. The G50 is getting rarer and may indeed go up in value but probably within that small group of people who know what it is.

I'm not convinced of the invest angle on the G50 cars but I'm keeping mine forever. Unless of course someone offers me stupid money for it.

[umfan866]

OK I have an update. I was surfing the web and found that the owner has also listed the car through a broker, so I don't even have to take my own pictures. Here is the description and link to pictures. Note: this add still shows the older price of 20k. I was over on the miles by a few, looks like it is just under 150k. Also I got the year wrong it is an 88 not an 87 (editing this in the title):

Link to pics.
http://www.westcoastautosport.com/docs/cars/2006/car-in00182.htm

Description (for historical purporses):

1988 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Coupe.
"This is the last of the original 911s with 3.2 engine �improved G50 Gearbox, Hydraulic Clutch etc. A very useable 911. Finished in classic Guards Red, with Tan interior. This particular example is a local car, owned by an enthusiast who has very carefully maintained it. All services during the last 3 years have been performed by "The Stable" in San Francisco. It has a recent new clutch, and new Tyres. Mileage is 145k, comes with the original Owners Service Manual, and Handbook."

So does this change anything?

[jorian]

Still looks like a 15K car to me - low compression on one cylinder would make me pass.

[trader220]

I am with Jorian, its 15k tops in my book too. These cars are NOT investments, they will not go up in value substantially, the price may drift a tad higher and lower as the car markets move around. They’re not all that rare you can still find examples of G-50 cars pretty easily, especially average run of the mill high miles and RED for sure are all over.

[anthony]

I think these higher mileage cars are a tough sell on the market. People may be getting around $20K for 75K mile garage queens but 150K mile cars scare most people away. Personally I'd shy away from a 150K mile car with the original engine unless it was a screaming deal and there was enough fudge factor in the price for an engine rebuild. With one cylinder low on compression this car would have to be an extra screaming deal for me to even consider it.

[cbeers]

Or you could just find a 150k miles car with a top end already done for $15k, like I did

-Chris

[umfan866]

Yep agreed--it'd be great to get one that's already had the top end done.


Man with Porsche's I guess you really have to think of the TCO not just the purchase price.

[trader220]

the TCO counts on any car

[umfan866]

Update on the red 1988 3.2 carrera that I started the thread with:

The buyer had a leakdown test done at "S Car Go" (not a full PPI)
but found these, and the numbers do confirm that one cylinder was
a little high-- do you guys agree that the #4 is a little high?

#1 - 2%
#2 - 5%
#3 - 5%
#4 - 6% (a little high)
#5 - 3%
#6 - 4%

I am going to see/drive the car on Sunday. I am still worried that
if I have to assume it WILL need a top-end or engine, and build
that into the negotiated price, that I will need to try to bargain him down to 9-10k (say 9.5k + 7.5k for a rebuild = 17k)-- which of course won't fly. Does a top end cost as much as a full rebuild and would that fix the problem with the one cylinder?

Also found more pics/description of the car from the seller:

"1988 Porsche 911 Carrera for sale. I have a great 1988 911 Carrera for sale. Red with tan interior. I've owned the car for about six years and I am the 3rd or 4th owner. The car runs great and very fun to drive. 148K miles and still pulling strong. I had the clutch replaced as well as new tires. I'm selling this because of the recent purchase of a 993. Asking $18,000 obo. The car is in the San Francisco Bay Area. FYI, the car was originally purchased and has always remained in CA."

BTW he ran a carfax for me. At one point the car was sold at an auction, apparently within CA.

Pictures at: http://1988porsche.shutterfly.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were to buy this (local) car, I'd be comparing it to this posting, which is on the east coast and a very similar car and price (seller seems to be able to go down into the 16k range here too), only the car on the east coast has only 78,000 miles. I'd have to ship it from the east coast.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301225&highlight=EST+OF FER+3.

(and also)
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=203678656&dealer_id=57989566&car_ye ar=1987&mod_bookmark_id=null&search_type=both&num_ records=25&make=POR&distance=50&model=&address=028 32&certified=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1156856376 884&min_price=&end_year=1988&start_year=1985&lang= en&cardist=0

Thks for your continued input.

[umfan866]

Can anyone clarify if the above leakdown numbers are within
normal range or high? Particularly the one with 6%? Does leakdown stay about the same over the years or get worse (I'd
do one as part of a current PPI). Thanks in advance.

[Drago]

Originally posted by umfan866
Update on the red 1988 3.2 carrera that I started the thread with:

The buyer had a leakdown test done at "S Car Go" (not a full PPI)
but found these, and the numbers do confirm that one cylinder was
a little high-- do you guys agree that the #4 is a little high?

#1 - 2%
#2 - 5%
#3 - 5%
#4 - 6% (a little high)
#5 - 3%
#6 - 4%

I am going to see/drive the car on Sunday. I am still worried that
if I have to assume it WILL need a top-end or engine, and build
that into the negotiated price, that I will need to try to bargain him down to 9-10k (say 9.5k + 7.5k for a rebuild = 17k)-- which of course won't fly. Does a top end cost as much as a full rebuild and would that fix the problem with the one cylinder?

Also found more pics/description of the car from the seller:

"1988 Porsche 911 Carrera for sale. I have a great 1988 911 Carrera for sale. Red with tan interior. I've owned the car for about six years and I am the 3rd or 4th owner. The car runs great and very fun to drive. 148K miles and still pulling strong. I had the clutch replaced as well as new tires. I'm selling this because of the recent purchase of a 993. Asking $18,000 obo. The car is in the San Francisco Bay Area. FYI, the car was originally purchased and has always remained in CA."

BTW he ran a carfax for me. At one point the car was sold at an auction, apparently within CA.

Pictures at: http://1988porsche.shutterfly.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were to buy this (local) car, I'd be comparing it to this posting, which is on the east coast and a very similar car and price (seller seems to be able to go down into the 16k range here too), only the car on the east coast has only 78,000 miles. I'd have to ship it from the east coast.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=301225&highlight=EST+OF FER+3.

(and also)
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=203678656&dealer_id=57989566&car_ye ar=1987&mod_bookmark_id=null&search_type=both&num_ records=25&make=POR&distance=50&model=&address=028 32&certified=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1156856376 884&min_price=&end_year=1988&start_year=1985&lang= en&cardist=0

Thks for your continued input.

At this rate I'll never sell my '87 w/ 218K. I bought it with "high mileage". The difference is that I bought it on the documented service history, not the total miles on the car. It's served me well for over 4 years now.

Unfortunatley, most people who inquire about the car can't get past the odometer reading.

If it gets any closer to 10K it will see the sawsall just after I strip all the goodies off of it.

BTW, if the test was done correctly those leak down numbers are quite good for an engine of that mileage. Did they do a compression test as well?

[Drago]

"I am going to see/drive the car on Sunday. I am still worried that
if I have to assume it WILL need a top-end or engine, and build
that into the negotiated price, that I will need to try to bargain him down to 9-10k (say 9.5k + 7.5k for a rebuild = 17k)-- which of course won't fly. Does a top end cost as much as a full rebuild and would that fix the problem with the one cylinder?"

I just re-read this paragraph and I wish you luck in the most sarcastic way possible.

Again, the leak down numbers you posted do NOT indicate that the motor needs a top end let alone a full rebuild.

Your last statement indicates your inexperience.

[umfan866]

Drago--

Yes I am inexperienced in the Porsche world, and thus why I seek advice on the board here. Hey cut me some slack, OK! In the e30 world I am
a guru as I've owned my own car for 250k miles, but for 911's I've always wanted one but never had the money...

The seller was the one who indicated to me that #4 may be a little high, yet a search of this board shows that normal range may be 1-6% and rebuilds are only needed when you see a cylinder with 40% etc.

[turbo3six]

Guru of Bottom Feeders at best! "Excellence values are bloated" ????
... yet your search continues. '87-'89 911's are GREAT Porsches. Many long time 'experienced porscephiles' contend they represent the end of the quintessential 911. Step up and buy the best example currently available, even if you have to beg and borrow... you wont regret it.
You may have to pay a little more than the price of a used Honda.

[umfan866]

Ok I drove the 3.2 red car today. It was quite clean, precise, and nice.
Lots of maintenance records going back to 93, recent tires, etc.

Couple of things did puzzle me.
1) the "Fuchs" are silver and red (see pic) dont' get that I thought they usually come in black. Owner didn't know either, although he has seen a blue car come in silver and blue Fuchs, so maybe it is from factory?
2) A/C didn't really work, owner said it may need a recharge (he hadn't tried). I know A/C is anemic in all older 911s..guess I don't care too much about this...
3) THere seems to be a general "heaviness" with the 3.2's the car feels like a heavy tank maybe it is the non-power steering. I started a different thread about this in the technical forum.
4) I am no longer worried about the leakdown given the results above. Saw various compression tests in this cars receipt history and they all ranged from 180-195 depending, so I think that is good too.
5) Under the rear bumper on the passenger side, is it normal for there to be a slight separation of the body parts/panels, I saw this on the right side of the rear of the car looking from underneath, but not the left.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5886/red911lj3.png

[hytem]

Real estate is an investment. Cars are not an investment.
Cars do not appreciate. I saw a '69 912 this afternoon at a Porsche picnic with 19K miles on it. A brand new car which had been stored for 20 years. Estimated value? about $20K. Better off putting that money in real estate.

The late 80s cars are marginally better than the early 80s SCs, and the latter can be had for lower prices--in the $10-15K range. Closer to $10K, they are a good buy. $15K tops for a late 80s car, if you want a good buy. Keep your investment low--to keep your losses low. You'll never recover an engine drop.

[umfan866]

I have come to the same conclusion -- 15k is the Max I'd like to pay for a late 80's 911. I want a G-50 (thus 87-89), 3.2, AND either < 100k miles or documented rebuild. The car above will need a top-end sometime between now and 230k and I can't gamble because I'll need to take out a loan for the 15k, and the need for a top-end could happen tommorow (a fellow Pelicannite
bought an 87 with 126k and a few months later also had to do
a top-end despite good compression and leakdown).

I know of one such car that meets my criteria, however it is a targa and I'd like a coupe, and it is not local (midwest). I'll keep looking and hope as things get colder in the Northeast and the rainy season starts here, someone will have a car perfect for me.

Hytem -- one thing I don't get is - in your post are you saying
that Carrera 3.2s (87-89) with G-50s can be had cheaper than early 80's SCs (80-83)?

I don't think that's the case. The G-50 is a hot item, and while the SC engine is "bulletproof" so perhaps a tad more reliable than a 3.2, the Carrera's have a few more goodies such as upgraded brakes, more HP, etc.

[jwilberdog]

I am with trader220 and umfan866 on thier comments but also would like to add:

If you find the car you like, don't worry about paying a tad more. Everyone on this and other boards likes to think they get the best "deal" yet when they go to sell they got "all the money".

What it really boils down to is if you are happy with a purchase you can ALWAYS find something cheaper. I just bought an expensive TV from a retail store vs. the internet. I knew I could get it cheaper from a internet retailer and tried for days to resist checking how much cheaper...it's human nature though...we want to be the one that gets the deal and not the sucker.

I have bought and sold a number of porsches including a one of a kind diamond blue 88 Club Sport and it's always the same. The person selling thinks the car is worth more than the majority of buyers are willing to pay. At the same time the seller is scouring the ads looking to find that car that is below the "market" and a "great deal".

I don't post a lot on the board, but do read the classifieds religously and have tracked prices for years on '87-89's. The right car is NOT going to go down in value, but don't count on making money on it either. G-50 cars with unique colors seem to be appealing to a whole new group of porsche buyers...those that are into the retro look. Metallic greens, blues and greys are not usually seen on the modern cars and they represent a nostalgia for some of the buyers in thier 50's and 60's and a lot of the 20 something's I have talked to also like a retro look (look at what they are wearing)

I agree about the honda analogy. I find the same thing when I talk to friends and relatives back in the midwest. The fact that most people have no problem driving a 20-25k GM or Ford that depreciates like a lead balloon is a whole different conversation. They think I am a millionaire because I drive a Porsche...I have given up explaining that its the same price as the taurus they are driving!

[deanslist.us]

Originally posted by jwilberdog
They think I am a millionaire because I drive a Porsche...I have given up explaining that its the same price as the taurus they are driving!

I couldn't feel more like this is me. I hate it when people always look at me like I am a richie rich type...just ignorance I figure.

I do have to disagree with part of what was said..while I continue to bring the price down on my car to find the right pool of buyers, many (buyers) tell me not to because it is worth more than what I am asking. Most buyers are confused as to why nobody has bought it yet for such a great deal that it is...can somebody tell me what is wrong with my car? Wife says I am impatient as I have only been advertising 2 weeks..but have 7 prospective buyers that have yet to get back to me with a decision...maybe they think it is too good to be true, I don't know. Pictures, video, descriptions, witnesses to the quality of the car, low price...what more does one need? Maybe I should raise the price and just wait it out instead of trying to kick it out so fast.