Is it me? or is there...

[trader220]

Is it me or does there appear to be a lot of really high offers around these days on some 80's SC's and Carrera's? I have seen quite a few people seeking 20k or more for SC's which in my mind look like 12 to 14k cars and 20k plus for early Carreras which look like 16 or 17k cars? I know they can’t be selling at these prices right?

[umfan866]

You are spot on. Most people think there car is worth more than
it is. Excellence Magazine perpetuates that notion that they are
all going up, etc -- but is based on a few small samples. Prices
are closer to KBB and Nada values, although perhaps not that
low- sometimes those guides are a crapshoot too. I like hanging
out on Pelican because in the for sale section people seem to be
more real about the price and offer good values. I have followed
the local market for some time, and yes, people are asking/
starting at 20k for a Carrera, and 15k for an SC, but the real
going prices are closer to 15k and 10k respectively, and thats
for a really nice driver. Some people I know who have come down
half-way to that point are packing up their cars for winter in the
hopes of doing better in spring (I guess they can afford to keep
their new 993 AND their Carrera in many cases). I don't know,
despite what Excellence says etc, I think in general cars depreciate,
and next spring perhaps SCs willl slip to <10k and Carreras in the
12-15k range for real prices, as the 993's inch down into the mid
to high 20's (I've seen some already). Keep in mind there are also
tons of Boxters out there for around 20k for a modern car, AND
rich people are dumping their 911's for Caymens and new 997s.
(one owner told me Porsche has now cannibalized their on 911
market by making the Caymen as good as it is).

I could be wrong on the low side, and as a buyer my lenses are skewed toward deals, but I think I'm not that far off.

[GothingNC]

Porsche has now built over 200,000 Boxsters so there is no shortage.

What will probably scare off potenial buyer of an SC that a $10,000 car that may need a possible a rebuild down the road for $6,000 will be worth less in a few years unless demand picks up.

Then again, these cars are meant to drive and enjoy, not parked in the garage like an American Muscle Car that mainly gets driven on Sunday afternoons.

I've also noticed a lot more cars for sale on the Pelican Forum then last year.

[jr964]

The people who price SC's in the upper teens are not in a hurry to sell.

[racer]

They are all $20K cars. Whether you spend the money upfront by finding a well maintained lower mileage car or on the backend with a high mile car needing "work". Your choice. SC or Carerra. Still $20K

There are NO cheap Porsches. Maybe cheap to buy. Never "cheap" to maintain or "improve" upon. Suspension, transmission, clutch, engine "refreshening" etc is not cheap, especially if done by a shop. Throw in some potential minor rust repair, maybe a new headliner/seats/recoverings etc. These are getting to be OLD CARS. Early SC's are approaching 30 years old. Even if refreshed once, its time to do it again!

Asking and selling prices aren't typically the same anymore. Thanks to the internet, the awareness of PPI and model weaknesses has allowed knowlegable buyers to negotiate lower prices. Rarely would a seller ask a low price in the hopes that someone wants to willingly pay more

[trader220]

I agree with everyone I just sort of scratch my head and wonder if the 20k plus SC sellers and even higher Carrera sellers are really interested in selling their cars. I sold an 87 16 months ago for 18.5k with 107k on it and I thought that was a good selling price and a fair buy too.


I buy and sell some 911’s here and there just sort of wondered what some people are thinking

[Jay H]

Originally posted by racer
They are all $20K cars. Whether you spend the money upfront by finding a well maintained lower mileage car or on the backend with a high mile car needing "work". Your choice. SC or Carerra. Still $20K

There are NO cheap Porsches. Maybe cheap to buy. Never "cheap" to maintain or "improve" upon. Suspension, transmission, clutch, engine "refreshening" etc is not cheap, especially if done by a shop. Throw in some potential minor rust repair, maybe a new headliner/seats/recoverings etc. These are getting to be OLD CARS. Early SC's are approaching 30 years old. Even if refreshed once, its time to do it again!

Racer's comments above are spot on.

I bought a $12k Carrera this spring that was in very nice mechanical shape. I've got $18.5 in it so far with the repairs it needed and another $2000 or more is going into it when spring arrives for A/C work and other misc. items. They are ALL $20k cars.

People asking $20k for an SC are either being unrealistic or have an absolutely museum quality specimen. I'm betting they have unrealistic expectations or won't sell unless the price is insane.

Time of year affects the market. With most of the rust belt owners having their cars in storage for the next 3-5 months, there are a whole pool of buyers taken out of the market place, so prices tend to drop in fall and winter. Once March arrives, we here in the snow/rust belt get damn itchy to buy a car and it typically turns into a seller's market.

Also, the economy has a lot to do with pricing. The US economy has rebounded quite a bit since the early part of the decade, so pricing tends to head a little higher since more people have more disposable income to buy toys with.

Just my $.02...

Jay
84 3.2 and 90 964

[umfan866]

If they really are all 20k cars, I'm in a bit of a dilemna. Right now I am in the market for a 3.2/G-50 (87-89) car for 15-20k (will take out a loan). I have been able to find high mile cars (150k+) sometimes even w/ a top-end already done, and "driver quality" for around 15 with a few minor issues, then there seem to be cars 20-25k asking price with much lower miles 55-85k. In between, there are cars for around 17-18k with around 100k on them. I'm consider myself really good at finding deals, but what the best deal here... the 25k "pristine & preserved" low miles car for 22k, or the driver for 15k. Or take that 23-25k and put it into a high-mileage, first year (ie 1995) 993.. (I'll skip the 964)... I think the answer to this question may also depend on in the future, what will people want... the last of the 74-89 body style, or the last of the air-cooled engines (993)....

[Jay H]

If you want a 3.2 G-50 to drive, I say look for the 85,000 to 110,000 mile car for $17k. It's pretty well depreciated, but still has a bit of life left in it if it's been well treated during it's lifetime.

The $25k low mile pristine car will end up being a $17k car pretty quickly once you start piling the miles on. Leave those cars for the concours guys/gals and the people that want a garage queen and will only put on 2000 miles per year (nothing wrong with that either).

Drive the $25k car to 150,000 miles and you'll loose $10k in depreciation. Drive the $17k car to 150,000 miles and you'll loose $2000 in depreciation. Granted, the lower mileage car will take longer to get to 150,000 miles, but the penalty is the depreciation hit.

Typically, the higher priced cars are nicer and may need less work. However, cars that sit around AND are not maintained, will cost you money to sort out. Stuff dries out and age takes its toll even if the mileage is not there.

When I bought my '84 3.2 for a driver, I stayed away from the high priced 30-50,000 mile cars and concentrated on the 80,000 to 110,000 mile cars that had good maintenance records. I can drive the crap out of my 90,000 mile car and not worry about loosing all that much if I have to sell it. My '84 drives exceptionally well and burns zero oil. So, these cars last and mileage isn't so big of a deal.

You can get a hell of a nice 964 for $25,000 though. Most likely a darn near concours condition car with good history and condition. I'd take a mint 964 (especially a late 964) over a high mileage 1995 993 for the same money any day of the week.

Good luck!

Jay
90 964
84 3.2

[jr964]

You can get a hell of a nice 964 for $25,000 though. Most likely a darn near concours condition car with good history and condition. I'd take a mint 964 (especially a late 964) over a high mileage 1995 993 for the same money any day of the week.


Quite true and very good advice for anyone in this market range.You can get at hell of a nice 964

[sbmackie]

Gotta agree with the 20K thing (or at least 17)
My 77 with a 3.2 cost me 10.3 to buy, but I put another 4 in it before it close to done.
The new car is an 82 SC sunroof AC delete with 63K on the clock, no rust, metza-metza paint, nice leather interior, upgraded suspension/wheels and very good records and I paid at the low end of the "Excellence" values for that year. I will NOT have to spend any money on it unless I want to. So, my recommendation is spend more up front for a car that has already been sorted to your liking.

My 2 cents
Scott

[BlueSideUp]

ok what is metza metza paint?

[sbmackie]

At the risk of mangling the true Yiddish translation:

"Metza metza"; to be average; so-so, in the case of Porsche paint jobs, to be "a 10 footer".

sbm

[BlueSideUp]

Ah so not quite a 50/50

50 feet away and 50 mph

I'm currently in a similar situation.

Do I look for the high mileage, well maintained 911 where the miles won't matter? Even high 100Ks mean a lot when the car has had a top end. To me the low 100K 3.2s are a question mark just because of the possible valve guide issue. Are my fears unfounded?

Or do I go for the low mileage car that will end up being more money?

I generally drive 4K a year so it's not like either car will be getting the miles piled on.

[sbmackie]

Sometimes ya just gotta go with your gut. I would not fear a high mileage care that had good records (you would know what needed to be done). But stuff WILL have to be done. I'd go with the lower mileage car with good records and pay for it. Less hassle, more enjoyment. I am finding that to be true in my case (second car).

On the other hand, if you're a decent wrench and actually LIKE being greasy, busting your knuckles, and making countless trips to either a) the post office to pick up parts ordered from our host and/or b) autozone and your local Porsche dealer, then go ahead and get a cheapy.

IMHO, I am

sbm

[BlueSideUp]

Yeah I am pretty mechanical. I've never done welding or internal engine work (except adjusting valves on a 911). However I have done a lot of suspension work, swapped out turbos, fuel injection, interior, etc..

I know that any car I buy will need to have work done, starting with one of Pelican's tune up kits. For each car I'm looking at I have put together a spreadsheet showing maintenance items due and a list of possible mods.

For example....

No matter the representation of the car I'll start with the tune up kit.

$136

* Oil Filter
* Air Filter
* Fuel Filter
* Valve Cover Gaskets
* Oil Drain plug gasket
* Spark plugs
* Distributor Cap
* Distributor Rotor
* Distributor Points (where applicable)

And since I'm tall any sunroof car will most likely need the seat rails lowered. I have no idea how much that will cost but I would guess around $150 if I bring it with the carpet out...

Other than that it's up to what the specific car needs.