87 red/tan 911 being flipped on ebay motors

[umfan866]

Hi,

This was a nice car that I tried to buy privately, but a flipper got it first. A woman had advertised it on Craigslist for 12k . I called her the same day but she said a guy was there onsite working out the price with her, so he may have even gotten it for less:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220138638208&ssPa geName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

I called the current seller and pretty much confirmed it was the same car. Single woman owner (allthough the carfax says 2 owners), lots of receipts (which the current seller DID take), well cared for, honest, etc but some body panels are painted apparently, with a high-quality job.

I asked how much he wanted he was saying like 22k or so, which would equate to about 10k profit. OK fine this is America. If this car had a known rebuild or top-end (which it doesn't) I'd probably try to get it for 18-20k. It will be interesting to see what it goes for on ebay......

[competentone]

Originally Posted by umfan866

I asked how much he wanted he was saying like 22k or so, which would equate to about 10k profit. OK fine this is America.......

More power to him! It sounds like he's a smart business person!

I've said it before, I just don't understand the "attitude" people have against those who buy and resell a car (or parts) for a profit. I suspect people are trying to say that their interest in a car is some how "superior" if it is not driven by profit? Those who buy something to resell at a profit are seen as "unclean"?

Or maybe it is has more to do with jealously that someone else got a great deal and they didn't?

[jetdriver21]

Originally Posted by competentone

More power to him! It sounds like he's a smart business person!

I've said it before, I just don't understand the "attitude" people have against those who buy and resell a car (or parts) for a profit. I suspect people are trying to say that their interest in a car is some how "superior" if it is not driven by profit? Those who buy something to resell at a profit are seen as "unclean"?

Or maybe it is has more to do with jealously that someone else got a great deal and they didn't?

I think I have a pretty good understanding and head for business. But this practice, while I wouldnt go so far as to call it "unclean," is frustrating.

What you have here is a guy that bought a car and is driving the price up on someone who wants to buy it to enjoy it. I have no problem if the buyer takes a car and makes it better while he owns it, then sells for a profit, or if it is legitimately his business. But, IMO, there are far too many people that "speculate" this market and it drives up the cost of poker for the rest of us "enthusiasts."

Its great if you are sitting on a car that is appreciating, but when you are trying to buy a great car and the price target keeps moving on you, I can see how this man is frustrated -- I am in my search.

I completely understand and respect profit (there is no jealousy), but an 83% mark-up in this case is excessive. I agree that everyone would like to buy something low and sell high...basic law of business. But this "attitude" of flipping cars is the same "attitude" that caused me to sell my entire baseball card collection as a kid because I got tired of dealers taking the "fun" and "emotion" and "love of the game" out of my hobby.

Let the razzing begin....

[umfan866]

I support jetdriver21.

All I am doing is to find a good car at a reasonable price. I just want to be able to enjoy a Porsche and not pay a fortune because I can't afford one otherwise.

Maybe I just have bad luck. Whenever I find a good or great deal, someone has already bought the car -- or is buying it while I am on the phone. But if the car turns out to be a dud, I get there first but to no avail.

[techweenie]

I've had similar discussions as recently as last evening with a seller who knowingly sold to a flipper.

And he was happy with the decision: the flipper will pay and go. No hemming & hawing, 'asking the wife' postponing visits to see the car, 'sleeping on it,' having to sell 'the other car,' or going to the bank for a loan. a flipper will have the money arranged, usually decide on the spot and never have 'buyer's regrets.'

Last year, I saw a car bought by a flipper and resold at nearly 600% markup, just because the flipper didn't dither, but jumped in and drove to the seller, decided on the spot and was prepared to pay cash.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by techweenie

I've had similar discussions as recently as last evening with a seller who knowingly sold to a flipper.

And he was happy with the decision: the flipper will pay and go. No hemming & hawing, 'asking the wife' postponing visits to see the car, 'sleeping on it,' having to sell 'the other car,' or going to the bank for a loan. a flipper will have the money arranged, usually decide on the spot and never have 'buyer's regrets.'

Last year, I saw a car bought by a flipper and resold at nearly 600% markup, just because the flipper didn't dither, but jumped in and drove to the seller, decided on the spot and was prepared to pay cash.

I think what you're pointing out is that people will "love" the flipper if they are trying to sell a car -- especially if they want to sell quickly. While the other comments on this thread indicate that people looking to buy don't like the "extra competition" the flipper brings to the marketplace.

I think it boils down to an issue where some people are complaining about a free market when that free market is putting them in a position where they are going to have to pay "market prices" for the things they desire.

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by competentone

I think what you're pointing out is that people will "love" the flipper if they are trying to sell a car -- especially if they want to sell quickly. While the other comments on this thread indicate that people looking to buy don't like the "extra competition" the flipper brings to the marketplace.

I think it boils down to an issue where some people are complaining about a free market when that free market is putting them in a position where they are going to have to pay "market prices" for the things they desire.

That's a fair comment. I would just add: if you're a serious buyer, act like one. Don't waver, delay or recite your personal problems/limitations. Most of us would choose to sell to a lover of the car rather than a lover of the opportunity.

[jetdriver21]

Originally Posted by techweenie

That's a fair comment. I would just add: if you're a serious buyer, act like one. Don't waver, delay or recite your personal problems/limitations. Most of us would choose to sell to a lover of the car rather than a lover of the opportunity.

I can appreciate that comment -- no need to string a seller along, however a seller should never expect instant action as some cars (classics) require due time for investigations. Aside from that, yes, a buyer should have funds available and be ready to purchase once the car is found to be suitable.

I will comment on competentone's comment about "fair market value." I can appreciate FMV, however flippers attempt to exploit this and drive FMV up in order to profit. Like I said before, that is great if you are sitting on one of these appreciating assets, but for the buyers, it is not an ideal situation. I have no problem paying what is generally considered FMV, but like anyone I would prefer to get a "good deal." However, when flippers drive up FMV or place the few good assets (classics) out of reach, it is extremely frustrating and I think many flippers find how "outrageous" their prices are when their cars sit for months without moving. I have many examples of this.

[umfan866]

I agree with the point about not being hesitant, have your cash ready, etc. however there is one import point that prevents an individual buyer from being really fast/sure - they are looking at the car in terms of it becoming their own car, and they will have to live with that decision/choice a long time (or at least as long as they keep the car). A flipper only needs to determine a car's worth -if the flipper doesn't like the color, it doesn't matter - because of the range of buyers that come to buy a car, some will like the color.

Another thing is some sellers dont reveal everything in the add. For example today I saw a car that was advertised in good cxondition etc but when I got there the guy told me it needed first gear synchro replaced. So then I had to factor in how much does that cost me (at retail rates) to repair, and also whether I can personally deal with that (ie put up with the hassle). So of course I have to think about it and mull it over, or call some shops.. and that takes time. Some flippers can do the work themselves or are connected in with a shop, so they just have factor the cost in, not the hassle part.

[Rockafella]

In all fairness, dealers/flippers are pros so they get the deals. I am not a dealer/flipper nor am I defending their actions, just pointing out that they have an investment that gives them an edge over the tire kickers out there. Whether it be a license, specific market (not just product) knowledge, time, or ready access to cash that lets them decide now, as a seller you want to deal with a professional. If a seller has to take a little less, most will say so be it.

When selling anything, if I am talking to a guy who has his wife's approval, money at hand, and want to take the item now or tomorrow I am willing to deal. If not, my price is my price assuming I think this person is a real buyer. Value my time and effort as a seller. If someone is wasteful with it, I need to make it back in terms of profit and dollars.

Think of it this way, if I was an original owner or enthusiast seller that has lavished time and money on an admittedly desirable car, why would I sell it for just over the price of a top end rebuild? At $15-17, even $20k someone in that league could/should afford to let the car sit and would want enough money to make the effort worthwhile. Otherwise, if the sales price is no object, where does the car go...you guessed it, a dealer.

I would suggest you quit looking for the "bargain" so you can concentrate on buying the right car. Those are often mutually exclusive. I am in high-tech sales and we all know that with customers, those who pay the most are the happiest. Conversely, those who want to pay the least are often trouble to the point they are not worth dealing with. Don't be an expensive buyer.

However, if you want a deal, prepare to act fast and potentially be burned. I have friends in the business and know dealers are prepared to be and sometimes are burned too, so it is not all roses on that side either.

Just my $0.02 from the peanut gallery........

[SandyI]

Here's some advice -- spend more time trolling the used car ads. Less time whining. Then you can be the one taking advantage of some poor woman selling her car under it's true market value. But you would have told her that she was selling cheap and offered her a more appropriate $17,500, right?

[umfan866]

OK looking at the last few comments I am sorry that I sounded whinny and I want to apologize.

I will admit that when I go to see cars I don't have cash in hand, while I finally do have wife approval (but didn't before late last year), and I am not definative. One thing I do do, is hold off bargaining or discussing price until I am serious -I know some people bargain, even put a deposit, and then bail out last minute.

I do spend time trolling the adds but I have come to the same conclusion as Rockafella- there is no use chasing deals unless its the specific car I want. I am focusing now on getting what I want, and if it happens to be a deal, so be it.

For the sake of conclusion - the car went for 19,950 on Ebay, so the person flipping made about 12k or more - not bad but not huge given the cost of having cash upfront, rushing there, putting it on ebay, taking calls & test drivers. etc.

[Stockhog]

Everything in the supermarket you use was bought from one entity at a lower price and is now sold to you at a higher price and you buy "for the enjoyment".

You also said "when I go see CARS". How many have you seen? Are you bing unrealistic with your expectations?

I looked and waited for the right car for over 3 years and bought a totally different car ('95 993vs'87 911tl).

I also suggest that since you know you are going to buy when you find the right car, co ahead and arrange the financing (or have the cash ready) so you want miss the next great deal.

Just my .02

[umfan866]

I have been looking at 911's & 912's since 2004 so about 4 years.

I started off trying to find a 911 for 5k, then upped it to 10k, then
15k, and now 20k.

I've been looking at classic 911's (ie 67-89 body style) with strong
preference for the last 3 years with G50... but I am real tempted
by some 1995/1996 993's I see that are in the mid-20's...

I started off worrying about having to do a top-end, now not as
worried about it if the car was well-maintained, but it is a factor...

Looking at about 2-3 more cars in the next 4 days..

[Stockhog]

PM sent

[Stockhog]

Check out the classifieds on rennlist.com

Category: 911/993/996 Ad Number: 6878
Price: $14999 Date Posted: 08/19/2007



Features
Year: 1987 Make: Porsche Model: 911
Miles: 70XXX Engine: Fuel Inj. Stereo: AM-FM/CD
Body Style: Coupe Transmission: Manual - 5 speed
Color: RED ON BLACK Drivetrain: 2 Wheel Drive

Options (denoted by check marks)
Power Steering Air Conditioning Rear Defroster
Power Brakes Sunroof Leather Seats
Air Bags Cruise Control Foglamps
Antilock Brakes Power Windows Alarm System
Traction Control Power Locks Intermittent Wipers

Description
1987 PORSCHE 911 CARRERA CABRIOLET 70,000 ORIGINAL MILES RED/BLACK. CLEAN TITLE! Very Nice and Clean Car! Smooth G-50 Transmission! A/c blow Cold! Drives very straight. NO OIL LEAKS on the Ground. Upgraded Polk Speaker and CD Player. Clutch pressure plate slips a bit, but will include clutch parts worth close to $1000 retail). A LITTLE TLC WILL MAKE THE CAR WORTH $25,000. CALL ALEX AT 310-230-9869 FOR MORE INFO!

[Kai1]

Look there`s a really nice SC not to my spec but very nice 82 for 15k
If you like to email me I`ll give you the contact guards red black interior E/S E/W fuchs no spoiler

I`ll give you the thread too this was from last week as well so hopefully it has sold

nice bloke it`s lives in californa

kayode_allen_taylor@hotmail.com don`t pm me forget to log in half the time