Value of 1976 European Carrera with 2.7 "RS-Spec" motor with MFI?

[smclaughlin]

Folks,

This car is NOT FOR SALE. I am just trying to establish a fair value.

Can you help me set a value for a 1976 European Carrera with "RS-spec" 2.7 with MFI?

Before you say there is no such thing: Porsche built 123 2.7 "RS Spec" Carreras in 1976. They were identical to the '74 and '75 European Carreras except for three very important details:
1. They have fully galvanized bodies like all 1976 911's.
2. Only 123 were made.
3. They have a special VIN number series from 9116609001 to 9116609123 (mine is 9116609076). The "9" in the fourth-to-last position was used to denote the 3.0 RS and RSR models in 1974 and 1975, but in 1976 it was used for these 123 coupes. Here is one internet link that shows the VIN numbers for these special coupes: http://www.adelgigs.com/911vin%20numbers.shtml

The good:
this car has fully documented EPA and DOT exemptions (it's in the USA).
it still has the European guages, bumpers, headlights, etc.
I am the third owner, car has been in USA since 1978.
full service documentation.
completely rust free, tight, good gaps, no sign of ever being hit.
It has about 135,000 total kilometers on it (about 83,000 miles).
Engine and transmission were rebuilt at around 100,000K, plus shocks, clutch, etc. The engine rebuild was done by Andial, MFI pump by Pacific Pump and throttle bodies by Eurometrix.
Entire brake system recently rebuilt/replaced, many other items like shift mechanism rebuilt, aligned and corner balanced, etc. - a well-cared for car.

The good or bad depending on your perspective:
When engine was rebuilt, it was converted to a 2.9L with Mahle 10.8:1 P's&C's, twin plug heads and electromotive iginition, 930 oil pump, etc. - it is very, very strong, but not original.
no sunroof
hand crank windows, manual seats, etc. - no luxury "extras" so it weighs about 2340 pounds
non-original 16 by 7 and 8 inch fuchs.

The bad:
the car was repainted by the previous owner about 10 years ago and it was a poor quality job. It has lots of flaws and is peeling in places - but there is NO bondo, no damaged panels, and no rust!
black exterior trim is faded
interior is in good but not perfect condition (but dash is perfect).
The 7R magnesium case halves are replacement items - there is no engine number. Original case halves are long gone.
overall mechanical condition is very good but a perfectionist would need to spend a lot of time make it 'just right'

Again: this car is NOT FOR SALE. I am just trying to establish a fair value.

Opinions + perspective appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[ZAMIRZ]

In its current condition, I could see you getting $22K, should you decide to put it out on the market. If you get a quality repaint and tidy up all the rest of the things "wrong" with it (looks like the majority is just those window frames which will be easy to source and the wheels...), it's EASILY worth $30K+. These cars have BALLOONED in value ever since the '73 RS pushed around $1/4 million. The days of these cars for under $10K and an RS at $80K are over, you're sitting on an appreciating asset, hold onto it and enjoy it.

BTW, post some pics if you can, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

[smclaughlin]

Thanks for the reply - anyone else out there with an opinion? I've heard some '74 or '75 European Carrera owners price their cars at $50K plus, which I think is rediculous. On the other hand, Amir's estimate of $22K seems a bit low - anybody know about actual sale prices of these cars? Anybody think that since this is a '76 model with a special VIN number and only 123 were made, that it could command a premium over the '74 and '75 European Carreras?

[fryardds]

These are certainly unique cars IMHO. You certainly know quite a bit about them but for others that don't here is a little background:

The story is the following: In mid '70s, the touring racing in europe (group 3), specified in its rules that the car must have the induction system of the series model sold that year. In '76 the Carrera 3.0 was introduced with the K jetronic. The K jetronic induction system is somewhat limited in ways of tuning so the racers all started complaining that the 3 last years' efforts were lost, and the factory relented and produced these 123 cars with MFI, to satisfy the racers for one additional year.

These cars were specified with non-tinted glass, left side mirror only, manual windows, no electric thermostatic heating, sportseats, less soundproofing, welded in plates for the roll bar on the rear longitudinals, fat rimmed steering wheel, no headlight washers, Bilstein shocks, no sunroof, and no air conditioning unless those options were ordered. There is supposed to be 30 targas, but I have never seen one and neither has anyone else I know. These cars were homolgated for the '76 season so they are designated as 'Carrera RS'. The '74 and '75 Carrera 2.7 models are not RS cars.

Yes I think they should be sold at a premium in the market but the few that I have seen for sale over the years were not offered the premium based on the low volume and Carrera RS status. That might have changed because the G body MFI Carreras have really moved up in value. A good friend in Germany has recently sold 2 very nice examples for around 60k euros each. Your car would be certainly less because the non-matching engine case.

I see you are in Chicago, I am in northwest Indiana. If you want to talk more send me over your phone #. I think these cars are great fun and would like to see yours some time.

[Porsche]

I would hold on to that car to be honest, it will most certainly appreciate as time goes by. They are most certainly hitting the AU$100k mark here (US$75k).

[smclaughlin]

Erwin - I do plan to hold on to it! I'm just curious about its value - partially because I need to get a new insurance policy.

I really wish it had the original motor in it, I am sure that would help its value. Since the engine case is already non-original, I've thought about buying a 'stock' 2.7 RS-Spec motor with MFI to put in this car, and using the 2.9/twin plug/crank fire motor in another car. Any opinions on that?

[racer]

Without the car in its original, unmolested condition, I don't see much intrinsic value. Would you want a '73 RS that was converted to look like a 964 and had a 3.0l US SC motor? Not likely. Too much work to make it "correct".

The value to an RS is its originality, in conjunction with its original exclusivity. If indeed only 123 cars like yours were produced than yes, it has a higher level of intrinsic value than a regular '76 911. Is it more valuable than a 1975 Turbo (also built in small numbers?) I don't know.

Wrong wheels, bad paint, incorrect motor (both case and displacement, injection etc) all hurt its value. DOT paperwork is likely a non issue when it comes to value (my euro SC had that). Body mileage isn't exceptionally low given the cars intrinsic value (my euro SC had 62,000 miles when purchased 7 years ago). Believe me, I am not saying that my old car is an equivalent of your car (even though its looks similar), just sharing some common traits of Euro cars in general.

Given the cars current condition, I would be suprised to see it "sell" for much more than low to mid 30's. Sorry. If it was completely original/unmolested it could be a car worth asking $100k or more I guess.

What would it cost to:

1) Bare metal restore and repaint?
2) Same with wheels
3) While your at it, a complete interior restoration/refreshening and
4) the biggie - the motor - how much does a correct 2.7MFI motor cost these days -$15k-20K from start to finish?

My guess is that these 4 items could easily cost $50k or more for top quality professional work.

Asking $$ doesn't always = selling $

What's it worth to you?

[XTN901]

very intrested I have a 74 MFI 2.7 carrera baby blue

post some pics

show me yours and i will show you mine

[Raven 930]

I've just bought one of the first of these cars ( 91146100** UK RHD), but I was pointed in the direction of this thread because my car is fitted with a 1976 2.7 Carrera MFI engine 6668139.
No idea ( yet ) how that came about, but will hopefully find out.

[fryardds]

Raven,

This is very interesting. Yes your engine has the serial # for a '76 Carrera 2,7. I wonder if PCGB could find out from Porsche which '76 car it originally went in. They probably won't tell you but it would be interesting to see.

Scott,

Have you ever obtained a Certificate of Authenticity for your Carrera to see what the original engine serial # was?

[Raven 930]

Brian
Past experience has shown Porsche Cars GB to be fairly disinterested in helping deal with "odd" cars - unless you're very lucky in who you talk to, they will generally tell you the spec as sold by them and that's it... and it'll cost you USD125!
However, Porsche AG were very helpful when I was trying to trace the history of my first Porsche - a Ruf 911 SCR - so I'll be getting in touch with them next month when I've been able to see what documentation I have and don't have for this 74 Carrera.
Cheers
John

[smclaughlin]

Raven, Brain,

Very interesting. I'm certain I have the original engine serial number in my records somewhere. I'll be back home next week and will check, then post it here. -Scott

P.S. There have been several requests for pictures of my car - I don't have any and don't want to take any until the car comes out of winter storage in a couple of months. But thanks for the interest.

[smclaughlin]

Raven, Brian,

I finally checked and my engine number was 6668121. Just a few off of Raven's, which is 6668139.

-Scott

Scott,

your car should be out of winter storage by now.

I heard rumors, that you`re thinking about selling.

Why don't you take some pics and show the interested crowd
what you have there?

[JGalt]

[smclaughlin]

Bernhard,

As soon as I can find the keys, which I miss-placed during my recent move, I will be sure to post pictures.

-Scott

[GWhite]

Hi Scott,

I saw that one of these cars (9116609041) was fully restored by Freisinger Motorsport in Germany recently and then advertised for sale at 86000 euros which I think is about $120,000. Of course it had the original engine and was restored to perfection but disappeared very quickly from their cars for sale list.
There are still photographs of the restoration on their web site.

Don't know if you've found the keys yet and can post some photos of yours.

Guy

[JGalt]

Another thing to remember about most of these cars (73RS, 74, 75, 76 with RS engine) is that if they weren't on a racetrack getting kissed and banged, then they lived in Europe and there the winter took their toll. There are very few of these cars that were garage queens. They ran hard, got a ding, fixed it, upgraded it, went out and ran some more. The basic package was all sorted out and provided a remarkable amount of reliable performance, unlike some of the exotic Italian stuff.

[fryardds]

Interesting, I rarely see a '76 Carrera RS come up for sale but one was listed on the Early S registry today.

http://www.slide.com/r/4ypAAu6U4D9CKjtJxMseVZbA64jYhwDO

Not the best color IMHO but looks to be in nice condition with a lot of documentation. The case looks to a factory replacement. The seller is asking 'north of $75K', which is not out of line if it checks out with a good PPI.

[GWhite]

From the photos it looks like the engine number says 6668073 (although not absolutely certain about the last two digits which are a bit blurred) which would be correct. Don't know what the 'AT' at the beginning means though.