First Track Car - Older Porsche 911SC or 944? Or Newer Non-Porsche?

[VroomGrrl]

Hi all,

I'm still very new here and really appreciate all the awesome info & helpful spirit of these boards. Even the smartazzes! :-)

OK so originally I was under some pressure to make a car purchase within a couple of weeks' time in the $20K range, and I was looking at my dream car, 87-89 911 coupe, no tail, not red. Saw & drove a couple over the weekend...came close to falling in love...

And then today, things changed.

As of today, the time pressure is gone. WHEW. So I'm kind of back to the drawing board. Before the time pressure came about, I was leisurely looking for a kind of beater track car, just anything reliable that would both take me to & from the track (AC, please!), and be a fun, safe ride on track. I'm not interested in serious racing or anything, more interested in learning advanced handling, HPDE and maybe doing some autoX. I was looking in the 1-5K range, a cheapo beater. I was looking at everything - Honda Civics, VW Jettas, Ford Escorts, etc.

FYI my current car is a 2004 Honda CRV AWD with 125K miles on it. It has been completely reliable, and is serving its purpose well. It's not a fun car to drive, automatic, and basically a little box on wheels, but I have to give it props for off-road handling. It's been incredibly surprising there - in a good way! Our other car is a 98 Camry, and but for the fact it's an automatic, it'd be my track car!

So now I'm thinking....if I go to say $10K price point for this purchase, I could maybe have the best of both worlds - a decent track car, AND a Porsche? From what I can tell looking at what's for sale & price ranges, it looks like I could get into either a very old 911SC or a newer 944.

While I am a total 911 nut, love the lines, the roundness, and the bug-eyes of the older era, not to mention what matters - the feel of connection to the road that I just don't feel in newer cars - I have no objection to the 944. I even have some fondness for them, as my best friend back in the early 80's had a sweet black 944 that was the first Porsche I ever rode in.

Here's the thing. I'm not a grease monkey myself. Any Japanese or American or newer car of any stripe would be cheaper and easier for me to keep on the road and on the track than a 15-30 year old Porsche. I could get a nearly new Jetta in the same price range.

But...it's hard to drop the idea of finally having my first Porsche! I've almost talked myself out of a Porsche for now - until I am ready to get into my dream 911. But not quite! It's sooooo close......

Thoughts?

[racer]

1) It been my experience that while a 944 is less upfront money than a 911, the maintenance tends to be a bit higher.

2) Check the shop rates in your area. Around me its about $100/hr. That adds up quickly if its always going to the shop for work.

3) Get the appropriate shop manual and learn to do some things on your own to save some money and build your confidence!

If you are looking at a $10,000 budget, I would look for a 944 or 924S or maybe even a 944S2 could fit in the budget as well. I would spend no more than $5-7K on the car, unless it has just recently been re-habbed (belts, clutch, waterpump etc). Use the remaining $5k to get the car "up to date" on maintenance.

Be sure to spend a couple hundred bucks on a PPI when you get serious about a car. Look for a local car owned by a PCA enthusiast who would have maintained the car properly. All too often nowadays, someone buys a 944 for $3k and soon realizes it needs $3k in work, so they sell it. Unless you want an endless project take your time to find a better example to begin with.

To me, budgeting $10K for a 911 will leave you little to zero wiggle room should something come up. A few years ago (2-3) "everyone" said a 911 (SC) is a $20K car. Either you buy high and put in very little, or buy low and spend time/money rebuilding/replacing worn out pieces.

[WPOZZZ]

I'll give some different advice. Have you looked at the E30 3 series BMWs? Parts are plentiful and they make great track cars. Very reliable, handles well and has good ac! I would say to look at a 87-91 325is, or if you want a 4 cyl, a 90-91 318is. There's lots of room in the car for all your track gear.

You can also look at a BMW Z3, but the 'vert may limit tracks/events for you unless you get a Z3 Coupe, a hardtop or a rollbar.

[VroomGrrl]

Originally Posted by WPOZZZ

I'll give some different advice. Have you looked at the E30 3 series BMWs? Parts are plentiful and they make great track cars. Very reliable, handles well and has good ac! I would say to look at a 87-91 325is, or if you want a 4 cyl, a 90-91 318is. There's lots of room in the car for all your track gear.

You can also look at a BMW Z3, but the 'vert may limit tracks/events for you unless you get a Z3 Coupe, a hardtop or a rollbar.

This is precisely how I am driving myself batcrap crazy. The little Porsche devil on my shoulder keeps saying if I'm going to get a 20 yr old German car, get a Porsche! I think what you're saying, tho, is that in a BMW I'd have a much easier time keeping it on the road, plentiful parts, more common so easier to get worked on, more economical, etc?

I've never driven a BMW but I am a big fan of the Jetta's handling, which is why I had it in mind. And it's kind of a Porsche cousin. As for roominess, I've already resigned myself to the fact that if hubby is going to come along on track trips, we'll have to take 2 cars. But this is actually a good thing! He doesn't quite realize it yet, but he's gonna be driving my SUPPORT VEHICLE. Hee!

Anyway next time I'm at the track I'll make a point of talking to some of the BMW folks and see if I can hitch a ride along and check them out. I love test-driving myself, but with my level of (in)experience, I know I need some experience behind the wheel to help me make a good decision. So I've lined up both a couple of mechanic/driver friends, and a couple of Porsche folks should I need them, to eyeball & test drive cars with me. Local folks from these boards have been super generous in offering their assistance, too.

Thanks for chiming in! As always, more to think about!

[bonkers]

Originally Posted by kathycha

Thoughts?

Will you marry me?

Female: Check
Loves Porsches: Check
Wants to drive stick: Check
Wants to race: Check

Ah come on guys, you all thought it, I just said it first.

Kathy, I'm kidding of course. Welcome to Pelican.. this place is actually pretty tame, there are wilder places on the Internet where using a recognizably female name may not be so advisable.

I do have one serious piece of advice for you: avoid cabriolets. As Bryan noted you'll need to add a roll bar to a soft top car for track work. That's as close to a regret as I have about my 911 but it doesn't stop me enjoying her for one minute, especially when the sun's out!

Ian.

[VroomGrrl]

Originally Posted by bonkers

Will you marry me?

Female: Check
Loves Porsches: Check
Wants to drive stick: Check
Wants to race: Check

Ah come on guys, you all thought it, I just said it first.

Kathy, I'm kidding of course. Welcome to Pelican.. this place is actually pretty tame, there are wilder places on the Internet where using a recognizably female name may not be so advisable.

I do have one serious piece of advice for you: avoid cabriolets. As Bryan noted you'll need to add a roll bar to a soft top car for track work. That's as close to a regret as I have about my 911 but it doesn't stop me enjoying her for one minute, especially when the sun's out!

Ian.

I lurked on here for a long time before signing up, and somewhat familiar with the atmosphere, I did not have any fear about being known as a woman up front.

That said, I like your car, so...YES!

Now that we're engaged, skip the ring, and pick me up a nice 89 911 coupe anniversary edition, wouldja sweetie? No tail, nothing red, otherwise I'm not picky

As for cabs, have no fear. I love to ride in a convertible, but I have never wanted one of my own. Nor a Targa - just don't like the shape. In a Porsche, my Porsche anyway, it's coupe only for me. There was a big kerfuffle in NASA-SE this year leading up to their June event at Barber - all about convertibles, roll bars, seats & restraints. So even if I were partial to topless cars, I'd probably bypass them altogether in a track car because of those issues (which are different from club to club, track to track, etc.).

As for wanting to drive stick, HELL YEAH! I drove them exclusively until I started spending 4+ hrs/day in traffic, at least half that in 1st gear. HATED IT. Auto was sanity for me then. Now, not so much.

As for wanting to race, HELL NO! Well kinda. As confident as I might become in my own abilities and skills after some training & practice, I have seen some real idiots out there, and as yet I am not willing to take that kind of risk. HPDE, TT, yes. AutoX, maybe even some rally sprint. I think I'd love it. Wheel to wheel racing? I'll watch, thank you!

That said, ask me in a year.

Thanks for the warm welcome, truly.

Now where's my car?????

This one would do....if you'd do a thorough PPI on it for me...sweetie! Doesn't it look nice on me????

[bonkers]

Originally Posted by kathycha

That said, I like your car, so...YES!

Now that we're engaged, skip the ring, and pick me up a nice 89 911 coupe anniversary edition, wouldja sweetie? No tail, nothing red, otherwise I'm not picky

WHAT?! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!!!

As for roominess, I've already resigned myself to the fact that if hubby is going to come along on track trips, we'll have to take 2 cars.

I see what you did there... just how many fellahs (and cars) are you after here?!

As for wanting to race, HELL NO! Well kinda. As confident as I might become in my own abilities and skills after some training & practice, I have seen some real idiots out there, and as yet I am not willing to take that kind of risk. HPDE, TT, yes. AutoX, maybe even some rally sprint. I think I'd love it. Wheel to wheel racing? I'll watch, thank you!

Hey, whatever you enjoy and feel comfortable with. I know several female stage rally drivers and they're right out there competing with the guys. One of the great things about motorsports is the potentially level playing field for women: the car is the muscle, the driver provides the skill and the brains.

Thought of another question: Do you have someone to turn wrenches for you? At the very least you'll need a regular mechanic who wont charge you an arm and a leg for the extra maintenance you're going to incur and if you do get more serious than AutoX / RallyX, you'll be needing service crew at events.

I actually spent some time thinking about the move from crewing (for a rally car) to driving a couple of years back and concluded very quickly that buying the car is only the start of a long, slippery, costly slope.

[VroomGrrl]

One thing I realized at my first track event was that this is not a solitary sport - it's truly a team sport. I had not realized that until I got a little closer to it.

Another thing I realized was that women are everywhere in the sport. I met several women who are in NASA as drivers, instructors, and doing Tech. I had been a little concerned about how out of place I might feel, and I was glad to see women at every level. I was concerned how I'd be accepted as a woman who knows little to nothing about cars & racing - and I find I am being welcomed and encouraged every step of the way. When they learned I was there with a longer-term goal of driving, folks offered all kinds of advice on how to work my way into the sport, using volunteer work at events as a leg-up. I showed up in long pants and was assigned to the grid, which was hotter than holy hell, but I was a very happy girl out there with all the cars and drivers and all the VROOM VROOM!

To answer your question, no, I don't really have a regular mechanic - YET. However - when having my Honda worked on recently, I talked to the guys both at the auto repair shop I use, and at my usual tire place. There are guys at each shop who are into racing and who do some regular work for drivers, some of them are drivers, & both shops have had teams & sponsored cars/teams in the past. I talked with them a little about what I want to do, what kind of periodic work I'd need to get a car track-ready before each event, etc. They seemed willing to work with me. I told them I'd plaster their shop name all over my car in exchange for a discount rate, and they were willing to consider something like that. I may even have gotten a tire sponsorship - when the time comes, we'll see how much of THAT rubber hits the road :-)

As I spend more time at events, I know I'll meet lots of people who are willing to lend a hand, too. I swear, I don't think I've ever met a more "family" like bunch of folks. Somebody breaks something, and here comes their competitor to help them fix, replace, rig, whatever it takes to get back out on the track. It's awesome. I'm hoping as I make friends & work my way into driving, I'll develop some relationships with folks who can help me with my car.

You're so right that buying a car is just the beginning! But I don't have great big dreams: I am DYING to go screaming around a track, maybe do a little drifting without peeing my pants :-)

[WPOZZZ]

Kathy - If your budget is $10k, it'll be tough if you want a Porsche. As said above, you can get a 944 and stay within, but you will also need to budget for spares and repairs. That is why I suggested an E30. If your budget is $20k, then a 911 is do-able. However, I would stick to a cheaper car because you can ball it up and walk away from it. If I balled up a 911, I'd have lots of remorse.

[Christien]

I don't think I'd take a $10K 911 on the track as is. At that price, it's going to need some work to make sure you're safe out there. Maybe you'll get lucky and find one that's structurally sound, engine gets a good PPI and you can get a few days out of it, safely. But my thinking is that at that price, it's only had basic maintenance done to it over the years, rather than being someone's "baby" and as such will definitely need plenty of work to keep it track safe.

I'd say you're much better off going with a 944S for $5-8K and spend the rest of your budget on safety stuff first and track fees second.

[techweenie]

I went through this 7-8 years ago and at that time, you could get a functioning 911 longhood for $3500, and that's what I got.

Today, that same car is over double the price. So the only way you can get a 911 for the track is if you spend your $10K for a 911 that is already a track car. There are some out there, but they are the stuff of legends -- sellers with no awareness of current market values and buyers up at the crack of dawn with cash and trailer.

So, despite the fact the 911 is a better track car for many reasons, you should consider it off the radar.

The bargain track Porsche for many years was the '87-88 924S. It's a 944 powerplant in the more aerodynamic 924 body shell. It should be possible to find a sorted track 924S within your budget.

Hold a reserve of $1500 when you buy your car so that you can comply with your local sanctioning body's rules: current harness (they are date stamped), compliant helmet, fresh DOT approved track/street tires, refresh bushings and put all brakes in spec, etc.

You are on what turns out to be a slippery slope for some, but I was able to build a track 911 for $15K and race it for less than $3,000 a year by approaching it as a fun weekend, not a contest to spend more money than the next guy.

Be prepared to get tons of attention as one of the (likely) few females with a track Porsche. Racers are normally very helpful, loaning tools and advice... multiply that for a female driver. You should have a lot of fun.

[VroomGrrl]

Originally Posted by techweenie

I went through this 7-8 years ago and at that time, you could get a functioning 911 longhood for $3500, and that's what I got.

Today, that same car is over double the price. So the only way you can get a 911 for the track is if you spend your $10K for a 911 that is already a track car. There are some out there, but they are the stuff of legends -- sellers with no awareness of current market values and buyers up at the crack of dawn with cash and trailer.

So, despite the fact the 911 is a better track car for many reasons, you should consider it off the radar.

The bargain track Porsche for many years was the '87-88 924S. It's a 944 powerplant in the more aerodynamic 924 body shell. It should be possible to find a sorted track 924S within your budget.

Hold a reserve of $1500 when you buy your car so that you can comply with your local sanctioning body's rules: current harness (they are date stamped), compliant helmet, fresh DOT approved track/street tires, refresh bushings and put all brakes in spec, etc.

You are on what turns out to be a slippery slope for some, but I was able to build a track 911 for $15K and race it for less than $3,000 a year by approaching it as a fun weekend, not a contest to spend more money than the next guy.

Be prepared to get tons of attention as one of the (likely) few females with a track Porsche. Racers are normally very helpful, loaning tools and advice... multiply that for a female driver. You should have a lot of fun.

Looking at the ads on this site this morning, I see a 924S Martini for $2500 - in Washington State. NO way I could get the time off work to make the drive from there to here, but looks like with a windshield, it'd be a great car for my purposes. Then there's a 1980 911SC Euro that looks awesome for $10,900 - and a 79 911SC for $9750 or so.

They all look good to me! I'm going out at lunch today to find the local liquor store with 911s out front. I'd like to deal locally (between Ala-Ga) if at all possible because I can't get a week free of work anytime soon.

[VroomGrrl]

Originally Posted by Christien

I don't think I'd take a $10K 911 on the track as is. At that price, it's going to need some work to make sure you're safe out there. Maybe you'll get lucky and find one that's structurally sound, engine gets a good PPI and you can get a few days out of it, safely. But my thinking is that at that price, it's only had basic maintenance done to it over the years, rather than being someone's "baby" and as such will definitely need plenty of work to keep it track safe.

I'd say you're much better off going with a 944S for $5-8K and spend the rest of your budget on safety stuff first and track fees second.

I understand what you're saying about what I'd get in a 911 for $10K.

The whole search is fun, but a little crazy-making. The more I look, the more impatient I feel, and I want to go out right now on my lunch break and test drive this old Datsun 280Z for $1950.:-) Bet I could get it for $1500

[grudk]

Agree with a built 924. If you drop your whole budget up front, how will you pay for maintenance, tires (gets $$$ fast). Lighter car = less wear on tires, brakes.

Consider a miata, too. I've seen them keep up with the Porsches nicely at the POC short track events.

One last thought, can you afford to walk away if you total the car at the track? What happens if you blow the engine? (I've done it, with an M-coupe; Porsche WAY more durable on track, IMO). Don't mean to be a fly in the ointment, but if this will be a big financial hit to you, consider this carefully. It happens, and it's why I drive a '74 instead of a GT3 on track. I don't want a huge $$$ hit if there is a problem. Prepared to walk from my '74 with a smile.

[VroomGrrl]

Originally Posted by grudk

Agree with a built 924. If you drop your whole budget up front, how will you pay for maintenance, tires (gets $$$ fast). Lighter car = less wear on tires, brakes.

Consider a miata, too. I've seen them keep up with the Porsches nicely at the POC short track events.

One last thought, can you afford to walk away if you total the car at the track? What happens if you blow the engine? (I've done it, with an M-coupe; Porsche WAY more durable on track, IMO). Don't mean to be a fly in the ointment, but if this will be a big financial hit to you, consider this carefully. It happens, and it's why I drive a '74 instead of a GT3 on track. I don't want a huge $$$ hit if there is a problem. Prepared to walk from my '74 with a smile.

Well yall are giving me plenty to think about. My head hurts!

Given that my time crunch is off & the financial considerations have changed, I think I should probably drive a few of these cars we've been talking about, very few of which I've ever driven. It's one thing to talk about it in the abstract, and another thing entirely to get behind the wheel.

Having shelved the dream 911 plan for now, I'm leaning heavily toward a 944 as opposed to all the many other possible choices because....Porsche! I've had PMs and emails here & on my club board offering everything from a track ready 944 ($4K) to a proven, pimped out Cobra ($12K), and I could get lost for days in the classifieds looking at these, plus BMWs, Jettas, Zs, on and on and on. I have to start somewhere, so I'm thinking I should start with what I'm viscerally drawn to in my range, which is the 924 or 944. Got to narrow it down and start somewhere, so I'll start there, and see what happens.

Your thoughts above about walking away were what I found so enticing about a $2K car. But I will be driving whatever I get hundreds of miles to various tracks, in addition to doing DE, so I'm thinking I am going to have to spend a minimum of $4-5K range to get something that'll be a dependable & somewhat comfy trip car plus being a decent performer on the track...and leave some room in the budget for maintenance & repairs.

Head...spinning!

Thanks for letting me do my thinking out loud here - it really helps to get all the different perspectives from folks who have already been there, done that.

[techweenie]

Keep in mind that there are very few cars you can just buy stock and take to the track. The 911 is one. Even other Porsches require quite a few upgrades to become robust enough for hard track use.

But a 911 is outside your budget rang unless you stumble across a bargain. The 924S might be a good idea. Or early 944. With either, you'll need a larger maintenance reserve than a 911 would require.

And just to emphasize: a fully track-prepped car with a history of finishing races is worth a premium.

[VroomGrrl]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Keep in mind that there are very few cars you can just buy stock and take to the track. The 911 is one. Even other Porsches require quite a few upgrades to become robust enough for hard track use.

But a 911 is outside your budget rang unless you stumble across a bargain. The 924S might be a good idea. Or early 944. With either, you'll need a larger maintenance reserve than a 911 would require.

And just to emphasize: a fully track-prepped car with a history of finishing races is worth a premium.

Ya know what I did? On my way home from work today, I stopped by Eurasian Auto (they only work on Porsches) and had this very conversation with the guys there. They had several things going, the car nearest where we stood was somebody's $30K track car that had been out once and was in for several $$$ of work to be able to get back out on track (why didn't I take some pictures for yall??? SORRY!).

They went thru some of the histories of the track cars they work on regularly, most bought as nearly "track ready" as could be expected - and what they had done to them over time (and how much it had cost) NOT to pimp them out and tweak them for a few more HP or few less lbs or whatever - JUST to keep them going from event to event, deal with the inevitable blown this and leaky that and busted thingamabob. VERY enlightening. Bill, the owner, wasn't there, but I talked to a guy named Chris, and two other guys who were elbow-deep in engine work.

They talked to me about what I want to do with the car and my budget, and basically they talked me out of getting into a Porsche right now. We went thru all the various Porsche options, and I got a really good idea of what I'd be facing with keeping a Porsche track- and road-worthy. It's definitely more than I am willing to get into right now or any time soon. Maybe after we're back to being a 2-income household here :-) Plus since I am just starting out with HPDE, as a beginner I'd be especially hard on a car, too. Gotta keep that in mind.

Then we talked about several of the options that we have bounced around here or that have been suggested to me in PM or that have been rattling round in my brain - E30 (NO!) Jetta (NO!) Mustang (NO!) Corvette (NO!) The first positive reaction I got was when I started into the Japanese cars. MR2 (YES!) Celica (YES!)...Honda, Acura, all good.

They were very generous with their (expensive, I'm sure) time and as I said, the whole thing was very enlightening. 15-20 minutes of my time very well spent. So now I'll be able to narrow my search down a lot more and won't feel like I'm chasing my tail in endless circles. No Porsche for me....now. Once we're back to being a 2-income household here, I'll be much better able to deal with the ongoing requirements of my Porsche. And I can cut my teeth on the track in a car I won't be quite so worried about messing up, driving too hard, etc.

So if I'm not buying my Porsche any time soon, are yall gonna kick my azz outta here?

[racer]

While I am no defender of the 944, it does have merits as an entry level track car. You said yourself that you haven't even been to an HPDE yet. How about an autocross?

To get started you won't need much anyway. Ideally a mechanically sound vehicle with some new tires and brakes and brake fluid. You can find 80K-110K mile 944s that HAVE had the critical work recently done (waterpump, timing belt, clutch) for $4-6K. Buy some spare wheels ($500) with some more track oriented tires ($600), a helment ($300) and come have some fun. If you decide that DE is for you, spend some years developing your skill. Along the way, develop the car to match your driving style (ie, modify it any way you see fit).

Check the 944Cup websites for truly track prepped cars to, for an idea of what improvements might be desirable. Heck, for DE, a new set of Koni Adj shocks might be all you need for a while.

I wonder what the experience at Eurasion Motors (if they only work on Porsches) is, when it comes to japanese cars and drivers ed/racing? Most of the older Japanese cars I've seen at the track (RX7s, Miatas, Celicas, Civics) don't seem any more reliable than a Porsche and often, significantly less reliable.

In the end, only you know your budget. Perhaps you need to put this idea on hold. But this is a place where we get to spend your money, even if it means a second job and a re-mortgage of the home

[richde]

Cheap fun track car?

Miata.

[GothingNC]

Spotted this 944 ready to race in Rick Hill SC

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/car/723720695.html