Please help with value: 73.5T
 

Hi to all. In question is a 1973.5 CIS Coupe in mostly factory original Sepia Brown. This vehicle has been in my family since 1978, in my garage since 1989.
It is rust free. The hood and front valance ('S' package) have been repainted (paint chips, no accident), the drivers door has been repainted (banged into garage, and repaired), there are half a dozen minor dings that paintless dent removal could remove. Never an accident, except the driver door scrap.

Interiorwise: uncracked dash, nice leather wheel. all original carpet, headliner with a little brown glue showing on edges, passenger seat perfect, driver seat a one inch vinyl section broke out, but saved. Rear fold down seats perfect with one seat belt added. No sunfoof. Owners Manual packet (books).

915 transmission was resealed and resyncro'd (1st, 2nd 3rd- tech said it all looked like new inside). Oh, under 96K miles, with all records.
2.4L Engine was fully rebuilt around 78,000 miles. When I last changed the oil I notices some tiny metal flakes in oil (Mobil1). Sent it off to a tester in TN and he said no problem. Had Gary Wigglesworth of TransLog check an oil sample and he had said he didn't see a problem, either. So, maybe it is a problem and maybe it isn't.
Lets leave it at presented, but unknown.
Clutch had 50% wear, when trans was out- should have replaced disc, but was out of $ money at that point.
Oil gauge shows low oil pressure-an ancient known problem. Compression is good. The oil return tubes need to be replaced- this is why I stopped driving it. Gas in tank needs to be drained and replaced. Needs a battery(converted to 1 side 12 volt).
Has 15 inch Fuch wheels and XWX's which are hard as nails, but look SO correct. It is lowered a little in the rear.
I've had a couple offers around $10k and am wondering if this is a fair price point. I could let it go as is, or repair the minor things. Problem is that I am uninspired and lacking free time.
I would be glad to hear any thoughts you folks might have. Even though I get Pano, they don't cater to my 911 anymore. Thank you!

Some pix would help

PM Sent

Pics, pics, pics will help.
In the absence of that, lets see what you have

Sepia Brown 73.5 with 98k
No rust (this is a big if)
Original Paint (except for touchups where mentioned)
Tranny/Engine refresh 15k-20k miles ago w/paperwork
No sports seats
No tool kit
No H-1's
No fog/driving lights
Pretty good original interior
Fuchs

Non running / Needs clutch / fuel line refresh / oil line refresh / new tires / new battery
Interior will need refresh at some point (headliner getting a bit ratty, seats need upholstery, carpet original but may stand out if headliner/seats refreshed)
Steering wheel is/is not original?
I presume it is running, although you have stopped running it since oil-return issue. How long ago was that?
I presume that you do not have paper trail all the way back to original owner or of everything done to car over the years.
$10k would be a steal based upon what you have stated.
If it was running well, with oil pressure and fuel sorted, it should get you close to $20k. I mean it has original paint, with some touchup on hood/driver door. That is, if no rust.

Only thing is that Euro/Sterling are depressed compared to dollar, so you need someone in US to pay that. I would say that $15k would probably allow someone to put some cash into it and spend a bit on doing some upgrades, so that they would not be too much in the hole.

Still opinions are a dime a dozen. Why not put it up for sale, ask a price, post lots of pics as you seem intent on letting it go, and are not using it? Or wait until spring, fix little things in interim, get it running, and you can be more aggressive in your asking price.

Thank you to all of you that have responded to my inquiry, many PM's included. I am trying to get pics uploaded. This 911 has sat on concave roller skates for the past 11 years while I raised a kid, worked and ran a business. It is under a canoe, always covered and wedged in sideways across the rear of my garage. (It is packed in, and difficult to photograph).
I fully appreciate it's museum quality sculpture value, and have enjoyed this aspect.

It has the complete toolkit, even the extra fuses(!), the tires-though old- are like sidewall/treadwise uncracked and tread loaded, it has a charged battery(though old), the headliner is anything but ratty- it is fully intact, with some factory brown glue stain seeping through above the rear quarter wing windows.
The steering wheel is original factory type, though only identical to the original.
It has the Euro headlights- (narrow ring chrome surround); it does indeed have all paperwork from all owners from new purchase in S. Cal.
The clutch probably could last another 50K miles with a caring driver.
It has stainless steel exchangers, new Burch factory identical exhaust, airbox with pop-off valve. New oem taillight lenses, good braking system, recent valve adjustment.

There is no rust because the car has always been garaged, and not driven in salt. The last 20 years it has been in an attached garage, substitute: "climate controlled with dehumifier".
I care very much for this car which is why I have held onto it through hardtimes. And why I seek the advice of folks like you, that I know are experienced Porsche enthusiasts of a special caliber.
Anyway, now that that is said, I will crawl under and around the old exotic beauty and be taking pics to make this more fun. Thank you to all - you are helping me by staying in touch!

Sounds better than initial post. Looking forward to pics. What part of PA are you in? Best of luck with sale.

1973 911 Sepia Brown
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233019500.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233019910.jpg
Initial uncovering of 11 year storage. Not a barnfind- I know it was there all along. More photos to follow.

Looks really nice. I'd give you $10k myself, but you are way past $10k from what we see. In better times, you would have been easily north of $30k for mechanically sorted car.

I've followed this thread with interest as I have a 73.5 also. From what you've described and the few pictures posted, I hardily agree with karlusmagnus--looks very nice and, IMO, worth spending some time and money to sort out. Whoever offered $10K and saw the car was looking for a steal, glad you didn't bite.

Still, you've got a lot of little things to take care of but taking care of the basics--fuel system refurb, brake system refurb, belt hose and seals refurb, for example--could push the value into the 20's, IMO.

One thing you do have is history, and that carries alot of weight with buyers of original cars. Right now, the economy is playing against you but you've held on to the car for quite a while. I say, don't rush. If you are uninspired, spend some time on this site and rekindle the flame. I can almost guarantee you will regret letting her go if not absolutely necessary.

1973 911T: Cabin & Air-Cooled 2.4L
 

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The drivers seat is tough 35+ year old German vinyl. A small piece on the side mysteriously caved in when the transaxle was pulled for new syncros. The passenger seat is better.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233023248.jpg
The headliner is also original. This picture illustrates its fine integrity, as well as the factory glue showing through at the edges. To install a new headliner, the windshield must be removed. I am experimenting with white shoe polish to cover the brown- it may take a lot of coats (but is cheap).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233023728.jpg
The original dash & instrument cluster. 95,546 actual miles. The dash top is supple and unsplit. Lexol leather conditioner is a good product for these interiors.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233024100.jpg
And, last for tonight, this is the original engine: 2.4 liter CIS with airbox, fan, and debelted AC compressor showing. The white glove guys would walk by this quickly, I bet.

No kidding, looks like a pretty nice car in the pics. Sepia has really been growing on me the last couple of years. Kinda reminds me of a chocolate 911. Mmmm, chocolate! Even with the questionable mechanicals I would pay $15k+ if rust free and all there.

I'd be interested in buying the car for more than $10k too....

Thanks karlusmagnus and ossiblue- your encouragement is fanning the spark, as it were. You are helping me to renew my interest. These early 911's are simply beautiful.

For those who asked, the car is in York area.

I'll take some more detail photos and post them soon.

It does look very nice indeed. Headliner is original as you stated and not ratty in the least. Has AC as well. Just put on a belt and then get it working. If you can hold onto it, you should. The esthetic value alone, just looking at it, during the cold months of winter in your garage ... ahhh .... I do the same myself ... just looking at its curves and shape. It would seem like you could get this up to snuff rather easily, in order to show it off at its best. If you are still wanting to sell, then you should get a good price.
Also post on early911sregistry.org forum for advice and info. If you go over there and search for "jade" and "bert" you should find a really nice car that bert jayaskera (sic) restored which was a jade color, with original paint, for the most part. Or look for user "fryardds" for his car, "patrick" which was also an original unrestored car. Only unrestored once. Having said that, some of your car has been painted, but still only some.
Also there is a car for sale here recently, an irish green 69T by JLandreth. Look for it here and over on that forum. Gives you an idea of value for a nice car. He was asking $20k, and still leaving money on the table. Times are also not what they were 6 months ago, so if you could wait this out a little, get her sorted, you would be ahead of the game.
Best of Luck
Karl.

Your recent pictures just confirm my first impressions--you have a keeper.

Value-wise, the market is tough. There is a nearly identical 72T currently on ebay that has languished for quite a while, offered, I believe, by a consignment dealer. I personally spoke to the owner many months ago and got the history of the car and it is much like your story. I desperately wanted the car but the market was booming at the time and it was beyond my budget. Though the owner offered me a good price at the time (given the market, then), I had to pass. Months later the car appeared on eBay at the "Buy it Now" price and has sat ever since. My point is this: I believe your car to be just as good, and in some areas even better, once it is up and running. Clearly, the price point for the 72 is too high in the current economy (a year ago, it would have sold, I'm sure.) Watch this car as I believe it to be a good indicator of the value of yours, but I would restate my own opinion--KEEP YOUR CAR!

Ossie,
That sepia 72T coupe that is sitting there with a dealer at $34,500 BIN has a motor rebuild by none other than John Forbes, which is nothing you want to advertise. There are some people such as Jeff Gamroth and Henry at Supertec that add a certainty of quality to a motor. Forbes ain't one of them.
As for this car, The pic's so far seem to support what 73.5T claims he is selling. A decent, well worn original 73.5T. He also is very up front about the fact that his car has mechanical issues which my just be fuel contamination issues and leaky return tube issues. My experience with these cars is pretty substantial, and there could well be north of $5k spent on getting his car roadworthy again. And that well be why he is leaning toward selling now rather than getting caught on that slippery slope of shelling out money on a car that has been sitting a while and is very expensive to trouble shoot and repair.

Thanks, blau911, for the information on the 72--maybe that's why the car is sitting. In retrospect, I'd say the 73 is a better car, if as described (and I have no doubt it is), so my thought of using the 72 as an indicator is somewhat askew. I agree that $5K+ is a reasonable estimate to put the car back on the road, and he can use that figure to adjust his selling price if he decides to go that route. Still, I hope he decides to keep the car.

Maybe, I didn't read the thread clearly enough but I didn't see that there was an urgency to selling the car. If that is true you are getting great advice. Take your time and get it fully sorted. This in the long run will create the most value. I do think the market has slowed in sales which is pushing down values. So sorting and holding is better than putting the money in the bank. Values will return. The 73.5CIS cars are desirable and will command a premium. Good Luck.

Wow that is a gourgeous car. Rust free and on the east coast man that has to be a record of some sort. We should call up guiness:)

It does seem like it would take some work to get it al buttoned up, but what a prize when it is done.

I think you should hang onto it, unless you "have" to sell it. Try to bribe Marconi into giving you a ride in one of his cars. That will certainly light the fuse to get this one fixed.

Thanks for sharing the pictures, and keep us updated on whatever you decide to do with it.

Cheers
Rich

73.5 CIS cars command a premium? That is the first I have heard of it? Early MFI cars command a premium. I have had MFI, CIS and Weber 2.4T cars, and I prefer the MFI when it's dialed in properly. The CIS cars get great mileage and have good power too, but the CIS system parts are expensive to replace. Webers are also great and easy DIY systems as long as the fuel system is kept clean.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=12397&highlight=1973.5+CIS

Sorry, I should have clarified better. It does appear I implied an extravagant premium.

Here is a thread that I felt was interesting.

Interesting read.

Cleared away stuff/cleaned up exterior- Voila!
 

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It was tight getting good angles, but this is a nice view.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233090371.jpg
The only way to shoot the front was by standing on threshold.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233090720.jpg
Passenger side cleared.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233091129.jpg
Drivers view.

Thank you for the continued dialect. Took a bunch more photos and will check back later this evening.

I wouldn't kick it out of bed for $20,000. Wish I needed a car.

1973 911 Tools, Manuals, and inner ID plate.
 

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Porsche AG specified that costly, quality, maintenance tools be included with each vehicle. I believe that the Porsche family empathized directly with their clients/buyers- caring that an individual, independent owner be able to unsnap the tool fold and make basic adjustments roadside. It is really a foundational concept of the Porsche Company. One of the most exciting parts of these early 911's is that the owner was essentially welcomed into the Family. Many folks would agree that is what makes this era stand out.

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Essential books: Owners Manual; Spec book; things included with a new vehicle. This car was originally sold by Don Burns Prestige Porsche-Audi Ltd. in Garden Grove, Calif. on May 10th, 1973. There were 4 owners in the 1st 5 years! The 4th owner overreved it and damaged a piston and valves. Then it entered my family in 1978, bought cheap 'cause it needed a rebuild. The color wasn't the most important thing considered- rather the clean chassis-body. After about 12 years, it was displaced by a gorgeous 930. I drove it home from Houston, Texas to York, PA. The first day I got to the Smokies. Slept in the drivers seat at a rest stop. I was so jazzed- it was a big go cart. When I got gas, I could just feel admiring eyes staring at her. It was embarrassing, but you just accept it will be that way. Early that second day, a 928 flew by at what must have been 120mph, at least. When I got home, ******** Porsche in Lancaster made me get new taillight lenses and a muffler. They gave me a price and my jaw about dropped off. I ordered the parts by phone and did all the work myself. This taught me that to bond with your Porsche, you must fix it yourself. Toolkit is essential- and Ferry and the Boys knew that. They cared.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233101213.jpg
Jim Schrager wrote an article this past year for Keith Martin's Sports Car Market magazine: Jim wrote that one of the indicators of unadulterated originality on an early 911 was this revited id plate in the drivers door jam. A plate unscathed and without overspray is considered an indicator of a clean car.
Does anybody know what the name and numbers mean?
edit: sorry this picture looks clear on my computer, don't know why it didn't transfer. It reads: Made in Western Germany Kunstharzlack 15-9-2

Geez, the more I see, the more I want that car--and the more I want to b**** slap those low-ballers that wanted to separate you from this beauty for $10K:D

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=25091

Here is a comp......

ossiblue,
it was my being out of touch with early car values. The first guy that saw it wanted to buy it, and made an offer of $10K, put his name and number and the price on paper. I never counteroffered or called him. Recently, I offered it to someone else, discussed the problems and offered it at $10K, again. He wanted it but didn't have the cash right away. Instead I sold my Outback (kid in college/tuition payment was due). It went quickly on Autotrader.com; so I didn't have to sell 911.
I am surprised at how values have risen so much. Posters comments in this thread (and post #21, above) have reminded me how much fun the car can be.
I am thinking about replacing the oil return tubes, and clean the gas tank- try to get it started. I can do these things myself. This will be my next step. I don't need the money right now.
This afternoon I worked on the car for many hours, digging it out and cleaning up. What I kept thinking was that the camraderie of people here made it fun- you all encouraged me. By myself I couldn't get started- but this community of people made it fun.
So, thanks everyone! I'd like to keep sharing progress.

from an early ess post of Karim,
" Kunstharzlack = kunst/artifical, harz/enamel-resin, lack/paint or varnish.
I think, factory production for all early911s was Zuffenhausen, a town next to Stuttgart, Germany.For Karmann bodies, it was a (subcontracting) factory at Osnabrueck, further north of Stuttgart. Chassis number indicates if its a Karmann body. check out this great period movies about paint and assembly in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, 1972:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=leis5zazeXY "

Here is link to http://www.elferhelfer.com/farben.htm which has info about your paint.
The color code is 415 ... and that is what your color code is referring to ... the 15 for the color, sometimes there was a letter indicating the paint manufacturer ... Lesonal (who did custom colors i believe for Porsche at the time and used 5digit codes, Glasurit used 4 digit paint codes) or someone else. I have also seen reference to 1973 Sepia Brown with the paint code such as 5410/5454 Sepia Brown depending upon whether it was targa or coupe - targe ends in 10.
More codes here ... http://members.rennlist.com/tweedt/glasurit.htm
The last 2 numbers reference the location where the car was painted, in this case "9" which would be porsche and 2 is paint manufacturer .. in your Glasurit perhaps from this post of Warren's http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131864&highlight=paint+ code

Anyway, there are 2 different codes involved, a color code and a paint code, but they refer to the same thing. Confusing and yet somewhat logical in a teutonic fashion.
All of the info is here on pelican and on early911sregistry.org
The search bar is your friend.

Good on you for rekindling your affair with the car, and getting her going again.
Insurance w/Haggerty or someone like that is cheap, in PA you can register as antique and no more inspections etc.
Life is charmed.
Hershey has a swap meet at end of April, so you could meet up with enthusiasts there or local to you as there are plenty of folks in Philly area/south jersey.
If you feel like heading to TN to tail of the dragon and deal's gap early April, we are heading down from NY and BOS -> see here http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?p=190611#post190611
You are welcome to come along.
The name is Karl and hope to meet up some time.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1233119068.jpg

True, but that car is already well running, has what could be considered a more desirable color, lower mileage, and has been for sale for quite some time at the asking price. I'd add back in some money for the original paint on this car, but only if the painted door and hood don't stand out like a sore thumb. Otherwise, what's the point?

Just my $.02

Being objective in comparing to the yellow car: my car has no overspray; has the factory gold stickers on the engine bay sill, still; the original braided copper ignition wires; has the chrome (stainless) wheel arches; AC; body colored wheel crests; and, generally, original patina and a less 'tired' look.

The Sepia Brown is a more timeless color that was a favorite of Ferry Porsche, undoubtedly a Teutonically understated preference.

karlusmagnus: The wealth of information that you provided in post #29, above, is greatly appreciated and will provide much reading enjoyment. Many Thanks!

Glad you're back in the fold! As you can see, there are a lot of true early car enthusiasts here that vicariously enjoy your "plight." It appears that you no longer really care about establishing a value but rather care about the preservation and rehabilitation of a very original and documented long hood--welcome back to the asylum. I, for one, am looking forward to the eventual pictures of your car on the road and that tell-tale grin on your face. Keep us updated on your progress.

As an owner of a 1973.5T in Sepia I wanted to chime in on this discussion. First, my advice is to hold on to it for now if you can. If you take a look at Excellence Magazine (usually May issue) Anderson does his market value update on all the longhoods. He evaluates to 1973, but does not include a 1973.5T model! I asked him about this because the last in line of the longhood models was also a departure for Porsche as it moved to a more modern car with the 74 model. The 73.5T was the first with CIS and had innovative features not on earlier models. Nevertheless, the last evaluation (May 2008) showed the longhoods were still hot then and escalated in price almost three times in value then only a few years earlier. A decent 1973.5T is valued between 25K and 35K depending of course on condition. Some have gone as high as 45K - 50K, but those are exceptions.

For a Porschephile, originality is everything so KEEP IT ORIGINAL! As for the Sepia Brown and those who conclude the color is a looser, so be it for them; however, its an original color amongst the electric blues, lemon yellows, oranges and viper greens of its day. Conservative would be more like it. Sepia was very popular back then and Dr. Porsche's favorite color. His 928 was Sepia and he was very proud of it. I find it grows on you and I enjoy the color.

As we come out of this recession, I am certain the 73.5T will have held its value and maybe might even gain abit. Like anything, supply and demand dictates where the market is going and the supply is not limitless! My car was restored several years ago and I know what its value is. And I also know that many our out there willing to pay for ownership of a decent longhood. If that is an original toolkit your showing, do you know what the value is? Hundreds of dollars! Amazing.................

If you intend on selling it, be wise and research the market (Porsche Panorama, Rennslist, Excellence Magazine and even PCA valuation certification). You will be pleased with what you find.

You sir have a fine example of a very collectible Porsche!

Bob

Bob,
The only thing I would correct is the fact that brown was not Dr. Porsche favorite color. It was green. In fact, this is why every model Porsche ever produced was also offered in a green color.

Many years ago when Brumos had a dealership in Atlanta one of the senior salesman who came up through the ranks with 356s and longhoods remarked to me that a color called "Sepia" was Dr. Porsche's favorite color. I had my 1974 dark brown 911 then and color came up in our conversation. At the time it was not very important to me, but I never forgot that. His source? Who know's.

So its one man's opinion; however, Dr. Porsche's 928 was Sepia Brown and that was the car he enjoyed the most.

Many on these boards take a hard opinion on the "Sepia" color. For porschephiles and collectors original colors are critical and add value to the vehicle. For me, when I bought the 73.5T color was a no brainer! In the early to mid 70's everything on four wheels was painted a vibrant strong color. My 1971 Fiat 850 was lime green and blended well in that rainbow of cars back then.

So who would have bought a "Sepia Brown" 911? It is after all not a vibrant color, but certainly a conservative color for its day. Considering the "T" stands for "Touring", I would imagine it was bought by someone somewhat conservative who drove the car rather gently. It was not a "see me" color. Maybe thats a good thing!

Hats off to Sepia lovers of the world:)

Bob
1973.5T in Sepia of course:cool: