Another expensive 72T

[geshaghi]

Has anyone seen this car which is listed at Foreign Cars Italia in North Carolina? Here's a photo as well as a link to the advertisement:
http://tkcarsites.homenetinc.com/ParamountCombined/details2.asp?path-taken=used&vehicle_id=CC10782#tippytop

The car was listed on eBay for some time (with a $34,900 buy-it-now if I recall correctly). Seller claims mileage is original, that the motor was rebuilt recently and that the car is 95% original paint. Seems unusual that it only has one sport seat, but seller claims it was ordered that way. Other than the over-the-top price, does anyone have any feedback or information about the car? I'm contemplating going to take a look at it. Thanks

[blau911]

Yeah,
The motor was rebuilt by John Forbes at Black Forest Racing and that isn't exactly a good thing. There is a long line of people whom he has hustled in South Florida before moving to South Carolina a few years ago to start fresh.

[ossiblue]

geshagshi,

PM me. I have spoken directly with the owner, prior to the ebay listing, and can give you some insights.

BTW, have you checked out this? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/1052797797.html

[Christien]

My car also has only one sport seat, and looks to have come from the factory that way. They both look 37 years old, except of course the driver's seat has more wear. I remember looking it up a while ago, because I thought it was strange too, and it was indeed a factory option.

[geshaghi]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

geshagshi,

PM me. I have spoken directly with the owner, prior to the ebay listing, and can give you some insights.

BTW, have you checked out this? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/1052797797.html

PM sent

I saw the red car this past week, and I'm debating it a bit. Nothing particularly impressive about it - no unique options, mediocre color change some years ago to red (my least favorite color), not too tired but certainly in need of work. Mechanicals seem decent but there is no history on the car. The seller, while not a dealer, has his own shop with plenty of other nice stuff, including a very nice 71T for which he is asking $35k.

I've also seen a very nice Albert Blue 72T locally, with all the S options (other than the motor), but the private party seller wants $38k. It is by far the nicest car I have seen in my search, but I just can't rationalize the price in this market, which I am convinced is declining. I think that the owner of the Sepia car at FCI will sell it for much less in this environment, and I've been offered a nice E for less money.

[Macroni]

Pass on it ........ you have come to far to spend that kind of cash on a car that is not exceptional in this economy. You need to go over to the Sregistry and PM jetdriver and let him review his purchase for $30kish.

[gsjohnson]

I would think that if you are going the numbers matching direction, a color change would be a big issue. That's at least 10K and a lot of dissassembly and assembly work to get it back to Viper Green...Plus all the bright work and weatherstrips.

[914agogo]

speaking of pricey T's

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1972-Porsche-911-T_W0QQitemZ290300324983QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQ ddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=ite m290300324983&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3 A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318
and this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1973-911T-R-Replica_W0QQitemZ300298009437QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20Tr ucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?ha sh=item300298009437&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparm s=65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___1972-porsche-911-T-sportomatic-restored_W0QQitemZ120385216316QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20T rucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?h ash=item120385216316&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkpar ms=65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1308

[geshaghi]

is right!

[EarlyPorsche]

The last one is a Sportomatic 72. That is quite the rare bird and worth quite a bit. The other two are dreaming!

[geshaghi]

I went to see the Sepia 72T yesterday, and spent the better part of the day with the car, the current owner and at Black Forest talking to John Forbes. The car is clearly a survivor and one of the nicest driving early cars I have seen, with a very nice feel to the motor. The owner has probably spent between $15,000-$20,000 with Black Forest on a rebuild and other repairs and maintenance. The asking price for the car is very high in my opinion. The seller takes the position that it is an original 15,000 miles car, and if this is true, I think it could help justify a high price (although then every mile driven will be expensive), but there is absolutely no documentation of the car's history, condition when found, service records (other than 2 bills from Black Forest totaling $13,000), delivery documents, COA or anything. The seller, a genuinely nice man who I believe to be completely honest about the car, indicates that he bought the car from a cousin-in-law who bought it from the original owner, and that the car had a blown 2.7CIS motor in it, along with the 2.4 in a basket, when he bought it a year or two ago, after it had been sitting on blocks/logs in the po's basement for approximately 30 years. The car has had some rust repair in the driver's side door jamb/b pillar area, and the engine bay and truck lid have also been repainted (a poor job with the engine bay in my opinion, as they did not remove the sound deadening material before the re-spray), so the paint can't be said to be completely original. Panel fit however is very very good. Interior is clean, with all trim present and chrome showing some age but again very very nice condition for age. The driver's seat is torn in the lower bolster and on the upper portion as well, and this appears due to wear; the dash is cracked in the typical spot in the center and around the speaker grill - both items that seem inconsistent with the low mileage. In any event, while the car has some needs, nothing is urgent and it drives very well. I have only seen one other unrestored example for sale nicer than this car. Now here's the largest oddity for me and what makes me most uneasy about the car: the car has a 901 transmission installed. Seller says he prefers the 901 pattern, and there was some suggestion by him and Forbes that some 72's still had the 901, but they have the "original" 915 that was in the basket with the 2.4. There is no COA, although the engine number is for a 72T and would appear to be in range with the VIN sequence. Given the lack of documentation, the fact that the 2.4 motor wasn't actually in the car when the seller obtained it and the presence of the 901, I'm inclined to price this like a mechanically well-restored driver with some minor cosmetic needs, rather than an original example, which in my opinion is in the low to mid $20's in the current market. Any thoughts on this one?

[gsjohnson]

Originally Posted by geshaghi

I went to see the Sepia 72T yesterday, and spent the better part of the day with the car, the current owner and at Black Forest talking to John Forbes. The car is clearly a survivor and one of the nicest driving early cars I have seen, with a very nice feel to the motor. The owner has probably spent between $15,000-$20,000 with Black Forest on a rebuild and other repairs and maintenance. The asking price for the car is very high in my opinion. The seller takes the position that it is an original 15,000 miles car, and if this is true, I think it could help justify a high price (although then every mile driven will be expensive), but there is absolutely no documentation of the car's history, condition when found, service records (other than 2 bills from Black Forest totaling $13,000), delivery documents, COA or anything. The seller, a genuinely nice man who I believe to be completely honest about the car, indicates that he bought the car from a cousin-in-law who bought it from the original owner, and that the car had a blown 2.7CIS motor in it, along with the 2.4 in a basket, when he bought it a year or two ago, after it had been sitting on blocks/logs in the po's basement for approximately 30 years. The car has had some rust repair in the driver's side door jamb/b pillar area, and the engine bay and truck lid have also been repainted (a poor job with the engine bay in my opinion, as they did not remove the sound deadening material before the re-spray), so the paint can't be said to be completely original. Panel fit however is very very good. Interior is clean, with all trim present and chrome showing some age but again very very nice condition for age. The driver's seat is torn in the lower bolster and on the upper portion as well, and this appears due to wear; the dash is cracked in the typical spot in the center and around the speaker grill - both items that seem inconsistent with the low mileage. In any event, while the car has some needs, nothing is urgent and it drives very well. I have only seen one other unrestored example for sale nicer than this car. Now here's the largest oddity for me and what makes me most uneasy about the car: the car has a 901 transmission installed. Seller says he prefers the 901 pattern, and there was some suggestion by him and Forbes that some 72's still had the 901, but they have the "original" 915 that was in the basket with the 2.4. There is no COA, although the engine number is for a 72T and would appear to be in range with the VIN sequence. Given the lack of documentation, the fact that the 2.4 motor wasn't actually in the car when the seller obtained it and the presence of the 901, I'm inclined to price this like a mechanically well-restored driver with some minor cosmetic needs, rather than an original example, which in my opinion is in the low to mid $20's in the current market. Any thoughts on this one?

PASS...Too expensive and too many stories.

[ossiblue]

Glad someone inspected this car carefully, as I had strong interest in it but it was out of my range.
From what you've said, I'd agree with your conclusion about current value. I, too, talked to the owner and he is a genuinely honest, open, and friendly man but the market has changed dramatically and the car--as you've pointed out--is far from an original survivor. The wear on the seats certainly doesn't indicate a 15K mile car, IMO--that's not much seat time. Missing docs, missing history, mismatched trans, body work, respray, all diminish a market value at the high end. Those are the exact things that push these longhoods into the upper brackets.
When it comes to verifying original, low mileage cars, provenece is demanded--everything else is just B.S. Stories are a dime a dozen, even if the story teller is honest and forthright. To justify a premium on this car would require hard-copy documentation and this car does not have it. I can certainly see, if the owner is into the car for nearly $20K (not including his purchase price), that he will not want to be upside down but the market is what it is.
You mention only one other unrestored car that is nicer, but this one has had some restoration, which is to be considered.
I think you pegged this car exactly correct, both in its condition and its current market value.

edit: Oh yeah, I forgot. A replacement engine that had already been blown, along with a 901 trans and the "original" engine/trans in a basket, does not add up to a 15,000 mile car--unless you can prove otherwise with documentation. End of story.

[Macroni]

I agree way too many options entering the market on a daily basis.

[blau911]

John Forbes will charm the pance off of you until the check clears. I have seen him do it numerous times. He is smart and he knows his stuff, but he is crooked which makes him very dangerous to any potential buyer.
901 gearboxes never came on any 72 or 73 model year cars from the factory. The fact that the car has no prior documentation, had a 2.7CIS motor in it when the PO bought it, and a 901 gearbox, there is no way this car is a low mileage original car. It is at best a good car resurrected from a dicey past. Assuming the motor and the rest of the mechanics are in good shape, I would price it at $18-20k. Removing and replacing the 901 gearbox with a correct 915 tranny in good used shape is going to run you at least $3500, which puts you in in the low $20's - what the car is worth in this market.

[73.5TinPA]

The odometer on this model has 5 digit positions. An indicated 15,000 miles could be in addition to 100,000 or 200,000 miles. 15,000 does sound like the amount overpriced.

[EarlyPorsche]

How could a car with 15,000 miles have 2 different engines and 2 different transmissions. Even if the paint and body had problems, a 15,000 mile car won't have rust if stored indoors in a basement. It wasn't stored indoors its whole life if a 15,000 mile car has rust problems.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by 73.5TinPA

The odometer on this model has 5 digit positions. An indicated 15,000 miles could be in addition to 100,000 or 200,000 miles. 15,000 does sound like the amount overpriced.

Changing out Speedometers on the early cars is a 5 minute job. Never believe an early 911 car's mileage based on its odometer reading. Only complete documentation of oil changes, and service records by numerous shops will verify the cars true mileage.