Value of 1985.5 NA low miles?

[kcoyle]

I am going to look at a red/black 1985.5 944 NA tomorrow and after speaking to the owner it sounds like a nice car.

I have actually seen this car around town and it looks nice cosmetically with decent paint, fuchs with the polished lip, and a decent black leather interior and typical dash cracks. The car is an auto with supposed receipts for belts and flex plate. He is asking $5500.00

I've printed out a checklist to bring with me but my question is this, the seller stated 40,000m miles. Is there a way to tell if it rolled over aside from the records assuming he has them and a visual inspection?

I will have more info and pics tomorrow.

thanks,
Kevin

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by kcoyle

Is there a way to tell if it rolled over aside from the records assuming he has them and a visual inspection?

Series 2 944 has a 5-digit odo, so it'd have to be a pretty casual inspection to miss 1,000,000 miles on the car if the odo rolled over...

You sure you want an auto trans N/A 944? Seems like very few other people do - so re-sale is a factor. The N/A 944 isn't a fast car by today's standards. That sort of money could put you in a 951 (944 Turbo) - still a very capable car today, bone stock. Sensibly modified, they are extremely fast.

I daily drove a 944 for 3+ years, and while they're great cars for some things - I was much happier driving cross-country in one than my 911, for example, maintenance gets expensive if you actually use the car - you need to take the published factory service intervals with a heap of salt. The 944 forum has more detailed advice.

[kcoyle]

Thanks for the reply. I saw the car today and it is a 40k car. The story is that they got it 2 years ago from a family where the owner was deceased. Apparently it sat for many years before the current owner got it. He has a recent bill for 2k of work including a belt tension only, motor mounts, recharge AC, and some other small things. He also has a VERY nice 928 fwiw.

The good:
exterior is excellent
wheels are very nice, tires are almost new
Interior looks good except for many dash cracks. Driver seat cover is new.
Everything inside seems to work. ( a few consoe rocker switches were pushed "under the console but work (pwr mirror and moonroof)
motor mounts replaced (receipts)
Comes with parts car (off site and not seen)

The bad:
Records show a belt retension 2 years ago, noone knows how old they are.
No record of water pump change either
A/C recharged 2 years ago(records) isnt very cold now (compressor kicks on though)
Automatic-Is/can the flex plate be dry rotted from sitting?
Does not want to do a PPI-

I'm an ok mechanic with a garage to use and I like the car but I don't think I'd go over maybe $4800 because I NEED the a/c to work and I would need to do the belts for peace of mind.
Sooo, with that limited info what is a fair offer?

[NewfieMZ3]

Count on the belts and water pump at least...........the fact that he has refused to allow a PPI would have me walking away.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by kcoyle

I'm an ok mechanic with a garage to use and I like the car but I don't think I'd go over maybe $4800 because I NEED the a/c to work and I would need to do the belts for peace of mind.
Sooo, with that limited info what is a fair offer?

Whatever you think you want to pay for it, which would be influenced by what you intend to do - e.g. whether you want to drive it (daily or w/e use) for a while, keep it forever, or flip for a profit. Book value is meaningless on these cars at this point.

It also depends on what your personal premium is for an low-miles original car. It's a negative in my book, as it's a car I can't just park anywhere, and drops value disproportionately when used. Your perception may differ.

I quite like 944's (load capacity is massive compared to a 911), but this car wouldn't suit my needs in any way. Daily driver, long-distance high-speed touring, parts carrying workhorse? High-miles manual beater. Track or street hot rod? 951, S2, 968. Auto 944? Not even as a gift, personally.

IMHO, you're wise to be concerned about the belts - many would tell you that a 944 that's just been sitting for 4 years or more shouldn't be turned over, much less run. The belts/tensioners themselves are cheap, and timing new ones only about an extra hour - all the time is spent getting to them in the first place.

Water pumps seem to last 50,000 miles or so. Just as well, since they're not cheap (in fact, very little on those cars is - the plastic heater clip that breaks is about the only exception). You should be able to tell by external examination whether it's been updated to the later turbo pump - if in doubt, replacing the belts is a good opportunity to do the water pump as well. When the water pumps break up internally (which they can do at the drop of a hat with no warning whatsoever), they can take the cam belt with them - mine was hanging by one or two threads of reinforcing material and the cover was full of shredded belt.... Should have bought a lottery ticket

A/C is considerably better on the Series 2 944 than a 911 of the same vintage - but still not in the same class as a modern car. If it's been converted to R134, that could explain why it's not as cold. Or a slow leak (they used barrier hoses, IIRC), could mean it's almost out of refrigerant just sitting.

Even if fully charged with R12 and working perfectly, the A/C on a modern car will work many, many times better without increasing operating temps of the motor substantially - which the higher A/C settings will do on a 944, and you still won't exactly be shivering.

Good AC in a cheaper Porsche? 964 or a 993, perhaps even a 996, would be my choice. Cheaper to run over time and much easier to get your money back/out if you move on.

[kcoyle]

Originally Posted by spuggy

It also depends on what your personal premium is for an low-miles original car. It's a negative in my book, as it's a car I can't just park anywhere, and drops value disproportionately when used. Your perception may differ.

Agreed. I will be using this weekends and and the occasional drive to work. I plan to keep it for a long time but I've said that about 10 times in the last 20 years. Also, I have 2 little boys and there are the invertible spills, scuffs and scratches traveling with them.

I believe the AC has been converted, I recall seeing a charge for the high and low side fittings and a recharge. I am not equipped at home for AC repair (AC manifold gauges and the like) so I would have to spend on diagnostic equipment.

I see at least $500.00 in parts, belt kit, new water pump, thermostat. (I understand i can get a Zims rebuilt waterpump but I would like to get a solid new baseline for the car.) And thats with my labor (newbie) which will be many, many hours.

So, as I see it, he's asking $5500 (WITHOUT a PPI) minus the parts and my labor to get me to a safe (in my mind anyway) running car puts the value to me at about $4600.00 Am I out of line?

[kcoyle]

Originally Posted by NewfieMZ3

Count on the belts and water pump at least...........the fact that he has refused to allow a PPI would have me walking away.

I know. Strange. He has a 928 as well and makes me think he knows something about the porsche world and a PPI isn't that strange in these circles. Maybe a lowly 944 na auto doesn't qualify for a PPI but in my book it does. Kind of a bummer. I'm really lazy and the car is about 3 miles from my house, and I have a porsche shop SM Motorsports about 15 blocks from my house as well.

[DDDD]

If he is 3 miles from you and will not allow a PPI than forget about it. Just walk.

[hcariss]

Think about why he would he not welcome a PPI. Walk away from this one.

[kcoyle]

Originally Posted by hcariss

Think about why he would he not welcome a PPI. Walk away from this one.

Originally Posted by DDDD;

If he is 3 miles from you and will not allow a PPI than forget about it. Just walk.

I'll leave this one alone. (but it breaks my heart) I don't think a hour or so at a shop 10 minutes from his house is a great inconvenience.
If I was selling and found a buyer a few blocks away who wanted a PPI I'd go for it welcome the quick sale, but thats just me. When I'm done with something, I'm done and want out. Some people are different and will hold out for that last buck, but at what cost? 5 million calls and emails and haggling and no shows and whatever. Not worth it to me.

Thanks for everyones insight on this one.

I may begin to expand my search to early 944's as well.

[racer]

Seller wants a hassle free sale. You don't really want an automatic anyway. Done deal.

[jwilberdog]

clean car, but way too expensive for what it is....agree with the other posts.

I wouldn't even buy an auto 944 no matter how cheap it was....

[kcoyle]

Originally Posted by racer

You don't really want an automatic anyway. Done deal.

How'd you get in my subconscious anyway?


I've been in contact with this seller on this forum


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/560628-fs-1985-2-porsche-944-5300-a.html

Basically the same car as the one above with 100k more miles, phone dials and manual trans ( no record of timing belt but PO has receipt for water pump?? and AC blowing hot).

He will be taking it to a shop in jersey AutoSport Performance Fine Imported Automobile Repairs and Enhancements for a PPI.
I'll keep you posted.

Thanks for everyones insight, it's a steep learning curve in the porsche world.