Please help me value my 914 Can Am LE Bumblebee

Matt Monson · 05-24-2010, 11:12 AM

Hello,

I've decided that I really need to part ways with my bumble bee. When I bought it I thought I could pretty quickly and easily make it into my driver to give me my 914 fix while me '73 is in pieces. That turned out to not be the case. While it was advertised as having a freshly rebuilt engine in it, it never got sorted before it was sold to me. Right after I purchased it, I spent $500 on getting it running, which included rebuilding the distributor. But it still doesn't run right and I don't have the time or know how to work on the factory fuel injection.

Below are some pictures of the car pretty much how it sits. I started to rip off the 5 bolt conversion, both because they are drilled rotors and not really the right way to convert it, and because the Fuchs are fake. I was going to take it back to the correct 4 bolt design and find the proper wheels for it. I did find the proper front spoiler for the car, which, while slightly damaged, is original and will be included. The cars got some other issues here and there, and IMHO it needs another repaint and some repairs to some body work done previously. It's rust free and a super solid chassis aside from the left rear fender that's got way too much bondo in it. It's a good candidate for a restoration.

So what should I ask for this car? Any recent sales of cars in similar condition to reference? Thanks in advance for your input.

The car is listed on the registry with the COA. Car #14453 in Colorado. The picture there is how I found the car in Texas. It's pretty much unchanged from then.
http://bowlsby.net/914/CanAm/914CanAmRegistry.htm

racer · 05-24-2010, 07:03 PM

How bads the rust? How bads the rest? What do you know about the "Recent rebuilt" motor- stock specs? something else?

Matt Monson · 05-25-2010, 09:55 AM

On the scale of 914 rust the car is in very good condition. It's had a poorly replaced battery tray that has started to rust because it wasn't done right.

But when you look at the pan and suspension pick up points and that sort of thing, it's rock solid.

Though at the same time it's got the typical 914 dealer installed AC unit that had the condensor under the spare tire, which was later removed. It's not rusty. Just ugly.

G450X · G450X's Garage

A "bumble bee" 914 just popped up in similar condition, I think it was listed on 5-24. The owner is asking $5,500.00, and it needs a full restoration. It seems to have a few bits of restoration done, but is basically unrestored.

I'd say that model is very interesting, but the rotten economy and the need of a full restoration (obviously) hinders the asking price. Excellent paint is expensive these days, even though the flat 4 is probably 1/2 the price to build a similar year 911, it still ain't cheap. It could be restored and is worthy of a restoration, but just don't plan on retiring to the islands from the little (if any) profit....

Matt Monson · 05-26-2010, 12:03 PM

Yeah, not looking to get rich. Hoping to get out of it what I've got into it so that I can spend the $$$ restoring my other 914.

Matt Monson · 04-26-2013, 12:27 PM

Bump.
After nearly 3 years under wraps the day has come where I really do need to thin this one out of my herd. So the question becomes, what is the current Spring 2013 market on an LE project car.

Car ran and drove when parked though I wouldn't try to start it today without going through the fuel system. Never got around to undoing the 5 bolt conversion and putting the proper wheels back on it, so it would be delivered with 5 bolt cookie cutters. The 916 replica fiberglass front splitter has been removed and the correct OEM LE splitter is with the car, but not installed.

Thoughts?

Regards,

Matt

daiberl · daiberl's Garage

A 914 LE was listed on Ebay, also needed restoration but looked not too bad, didn't even get an offer for $7,500, see

Porsche : 914 LE in Porsche | eBay Motors
Based on your pictures and what I can imagine after 3 years under a tarp I would say $4,000, if the rust got worse maybe less. I would post pictures on 914world or contact Jeff Bowlsby, he knows the LE world very well.

Matt Monson · 04-27-2013, 09:42 PM

3 years under a tarp in a garage with a concrete floor and you are speculating that the "rust" of which there was very little got worse? This is Colorado, not Seattle...

daiberl · daiberl's Garage

Sorry that I didn't read that the car was parked in a garage and on concrete floor, oops, you didn't mention it before

I have an LE, I know how "rare" they are, but when I look at the pictures you have posted the car needs a major restoration, engine compartment looks not really good, door panels cut for speaker, AC whole in the front trunk, rust at battery tray, 5-lug, "interesting" rear spoiler, missing fog light grills, vinyl at b-pillar although a LE never had this, chrome at b-pillar although an LE never had this, wrong LE stripes (originals go into wheel house), damaged front spoiler, .... So even if the car was parked inside $4,000 sound like a good starting point.

Matt Monson · 11:10 PM

I'll start by saying that I don't know dailberl from Adam, but the commentary I am seeing is very familiar. It is the same sort of beat down we used to give a car when I worked for Carquip and we were trying to tear up a car enough so that we could buy it with room make at least a 20-25% profit for the house. In my experience, that sort of white glove concours commentary generally comes from buyers looking to snatch a deal. And given the several pms I've gotten from people choosing not to post their opinions publicly, I'd say the number thrown out there of $4k is probably half the actual value of the car.

That game of subtractive checkbook restoration math is almost as old ad cars themselves. We ALL know that the car has the wrong Porsche script, vinyl sails, non-original rear wing, 911 center reflector, electric trunk latch release, etc. These things take an incompetent diyer 4-5 hours to undo? But they were all average period mods done to 914s, as was the 5 bolt conversion. They "hurt" the value of a concours LE, but let's assume for a minute that this is just an average run of the mill 1974 2.0l with most of the appearance group features intact. I'm supposed to believe that because it is an LE it is less valuable than a '74 2.0 because it needs more $$$ to make correct?

When I say it needs the fuel system "gone through" I mean it had sat for 3 years with 5 gallons of gas in a tank that had Stabil added to it but hasn't been cranked since I first got the car running and drove it for a few months. Engine was built by a professional, albeit it not a well known one. It is not one of those "let's toss some Webers on it and and another dizzy because we don't understand the FI system" cars. It is all thre and complete. Someone looking to do a proper 2.0l FI restoration has everything intact and accounted for. Just would take someone who is NOT a 914 FI guy 5-6 hours to with an expert like Brad Mayeur or Al Johnson to make it run right. That is $500-600 of actual shop time.

So, in light of all that, when I see driver '73-74 2.0l 914s in similar condition trading hands for $6-8k I question the motives of the guy throwing out a $4k price. I ask people what the car is worth in the current market. When I get told it is worth less than compatible cars of equal spec that lack "special edition" status you'll have to excuse me if I doubt the sincerity of the valuation.

dienstuhr · dienstuhr's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I'll start by saying that I don't know dailberl from Adam, but the commentary I am seeing is very familiar. It is the same sort of beat down we used to give a car when I worked for Carquip and we were trying to tear up a car enough so that we could buy it with room make at least a 20-25% profit for the house. In my experience, that sort of white glove concours commentary generally comes from buyers looking to snatch a deal. And given the several pms I've gotten from people choosing not to post their opinions publicly, I'd say the number thrown out there of $4k is probably half the actual value of the car.

That game of subtractive checkbook restoration math is almost as old ad cars themselves. We ALL know that the car has the wrong Porsche script, vinyl sails, non-original rear wing, 911 center reflector, electric trunk latch release, etc. These things take an incompetent diyer 4-5 hours to undo? But they were all average period mods done to 914s, as was the 5 bolt conversion. They "hurt" the value of a concours LE, but let's assume for a minute that this is just an average run of the mill 1974 2.0l with most of the appearance group features intact. I'm supposed to believe that because it is an LE it is less valuable than a '74 2.0 because it needs more $$$ to make correct?

When I say it needs the fuel system "gone through" I mean it had sat for 3 years with 5 gallons of gas in a tank that had Stabil added to it but hasn't been cranked since I first got the car running and drove it for a few months. Engine was built by a professional, albeit it not a well known one. It is not one of those "let's toss some Webers on it and and another dizzy because we don't understand the FI system" cars. It is all thre and complete. Someone looking to do a proper 2.0l FI restoration has everything intact and accounted for. Just would take someone who is NOT a 914 FI guy 5-6 hours to with an expert like Brad Mayeur or Al Johnson to make it run right. That is $500-600 of actual shop time.

So, in light of all that, when I see driver '73-74 2.0l 914s in similar condition trading hands for $6-8k I question the motives of the guy throwing out a $4k price. I ask people what the car is worth in the current market. When I get told it is worth less than compatible cars of equal spec that lack "special edition" status you'll have to excuse me if I doubt the sincerity of the valuation.

I'd never heard of the "Can Am LE" before and it looks cool. Thanks for posting it.

But it sounds like you have a value in mind already, so why ask here?

Cheers

d.

Matt Monson · 04-30-2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

But it sounds like you have a value in mind already, so why ask here?

Cheers

d.

I know what it would take for me to part with it, but in all honesty, I haven't followed 914 values in the way that I used to. I've got a vague idea of where the 73-74 2.0l market is and you see things in print here and there that the LEs are on the rise above and beyond a regular 2.0l. But I honestly don't know how much truth there is to that, and there are few enough of them that I was hoping maybe some members might produce some data points. Is an LE worth 10% more than a regular 2.0? 20% more? 2% more? I don't know. But I can tell you for sure that I could part it out and ruin a perfectly good restorable special edition car for more than the $4k suggested.

If the car is really only worth as much as any other 2.0l, I'll probably just put it back under wraps and sit on it for a few more years and see if I ever find the time to properly restore it. Plus if someone sees the car here, leads me to believe that they are looking for an interesting restoration project and wants to buy it, I'll have that conversation.

I really don't have any interest in selling the car when it comes down to it. I am getting spousal pressure to sell. I've started restoration work (going to be a bare metal job) on my '73 914 2.0l and simultaneously am in negotations with someone to buy another car. The wife is asking where am I going to put them all and how am I planning to pay for all of this? If I show her a decent little deposit in my cars bank account (yes, I do actually keep a separate account from family finances just to keep in my wife's good graces) and assure her that I won't be raiding our savings, then I get a little bit more peace in the home. I love my wife to death, but she considers me a car hoarder. I'm back up to 9 cars, which was kind of her breaking point last time around...

daiberl · daiberl's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

I'd never heard of the "Can Am LE" before and it looks cool. Thanks for posting it.

But it sounds like you have a value in mind already, so why ask here?

Cheers

d.

I couldn't agree more

If the original poster has an opinion or a price he wants to get then he should not ask about what the car is worth if he then get's upset about an answer. but what do I know of 914's, especially about a Bumblebee!
So let's agree the car is worth much more and my restored one goes up in value, makes me also very happy and we can close this discussion

Matt Monson · 04-30-2013, 06:46 PM

So, we have one Bumble Bee expert in our midst? Anyone else have an opinion? Is he right? Is he in left field? Or are there just not enough 914 people on Pelican to gain a decent sampling of opinions?

SilberUrS6 · 04-30-2013, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

So, we have one Bumble Bee expert in our midst? Anyone else have an opinion? Is he right? Is he in left field? Or are there just not enough 914 people on Pelican to gain a decent sampling of opinions?

Actually, I have an opinion.

My opinion is that you already have an idea in mind about what the car is worth. Put it up for sale at that price, "firm", and see how it goes. If you get nothing, you'll know you're WAY off. If you get some nibbles with "how firm", then you'll know that you're high, but not stupid-high.

914s aren't my thing - I'm much better with 911s. But overall selling and valuation issues, especially for cars that are a little off the beaten path, can be a problem. The fact that they are unusual can help their value. Or, they can be an obscure variant of an obscure car - not worth much more than the more mundane versions of the obscure car. As an Audi guy, I can tell you all about that.

The number I have in my head is worthless if it's lower than your "head number", so I'm not going to bother. But I do encourage you to prep it for sale, and put it up.

Matt Monson · 04-30-2013, 10:04 PM

Silber,
I appreciate your thoughts and your contributions to the Marketplace are always well thought out.

But there are two things at play here. One is "my number". My number isn't influenced so much by my purchase price as the opportunity cost of preparing the car for sale. Any of us who have sold a few cars know that we can swing the price of a car by $1000, and sometimes more by fixing a handful of little things and just doing some general detail work. If I make this car run and people are less concerned about the state of the motor, again, a value bump. Etc etc.

I own my own business. I have an 18 month old daughter. And on top of it all, I have other car projects I would much rather spend my limited spare time working on/playing with.

So, I am in essence trying to find out if this car is worth enough for me to spend several weekends working on it and properly marketing it.

And that brings me to part 2, I don't really know where the market on an LE is these days. If it is spiking in lock step with 914-6's but at a somewhat lower overall level I might be a fool to dump this car.

So, while there is a specific Bumble Bee that sits before us that has a distinct possibility of being put up for sale what I would really like to know is what are they really worth and what are they going for today?

Juegen's $4k number isn't worth my time or bother. That $7500 EBay car he listed is a value data point but in actually way rougher than my car. Recently a Pelican member had a restored one listed for $18k. His only update to the thread was to say it sold, though I have no idea for how much.

So, instead of focusing on my car, I would love for this to be a discussion of current market value for LEs in various conditions. What you all would help me do in participating in that conversation is decide whether or not to sell. I guess I was a little unclear in my bumping post in that I said I was selling the car. The car is most definitely for sale, but whether or not I try to sell it is the thing I have yet to determine (spousal pressure be damned).

Bristol · Bristol's Garage

I personally thought the difference in the LE cars is mostly the paint. I had to educate myself and found this great info on the Can Am LE 914's:

The 1974 Porsche 914 Limited Edition

I think you will need to find the right buyer who is a Porsche lover and collector to have the LE aspect of your car add significant value. Obviously you place value on this aspect of the car and will need to find a buyer who feels likewise.

As to 914 values in general, I can't comment on your specific car because I can't view most of the photos at work, but I have been looking at 914's a lot recently and have followed the market over the last few years. Overall I believe the market is very depressed, similar to the 944 market. You can find lots and lots of projects on Craiglist locally for $500 to $1,500. There are also plenty of runners in the $4,000 to $6,000 range. Sure I see a really cherry 914 come along now and then priced for $12,000 to $15,000, but they do not sell quickly (if at all). I got a great deal in 2009 and picked up a cherry '72 for ~$6,000 (owner was originally asking $12,500) and I've been using it as my daily driver/beater since then. My latest is a '73 914 I just got in a deal for FREE, but it's pretty rough. I wonder how many other nicer 914's like my '72 are either dumped at a much lower price or withdrawn from the market. List prices tell us nothing without knowing what the cars really sold for.

You may not like what others are telling you about the value of your car, but I tend to agree with them about the market in general for 914's. I think that an original LE with the color matched Mahle wheels, other Can Am package bits, decent paint, and maybe just needing a freshening would be worth more than your average 914 (but not by much to me, because I don't value originality much). But in the real world, a regular 914 project that does not run and is not original is worth maybe $1,500 because that's exactly what I see two people asking (OBO) for their's on my local Facebook "Man Cave" (or search Craiglist to find dozens of examples). That's honestly what I can pay locally for a solid, rust free project that "just needs" fresh fuel and some tuning to get running again after sitting for a few years. Again, I can't see your car, but if it ain't original and it ain't running, why would you value it for much more???

Kirk

Matt Monson · 05-01-2013, 07:59 PM

Kirk,
Thank you for your candid thoughts. And I agree with your thinking that an LE only has any special value to a 914 guy. It is a car that interests NARPers and not many in the larger Porsche community at large. And Bowlsby's collection of information regarding them that you linked is considered the definitive source on their details. It is one of Porsche's odd ball models, kind of like the 1975 911 signature series cars.

SilberUrS6 · 05-01-2013, 08:27 PM

I was sort of heading that way. It's really too bad - the 914 got very little love. And still doesn't. Like the 944, which is really a great car.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Good luck, however you go. FWIW, I like the car as it sits.

TV74911S · 05-02-2013, 08:03 AM

Hey Matt:
I haven't tracked the 914 market in detail, so I am not going to be much help on the value. However, I am a former 914 owner and I can tell you that a rust-free car shouldn't be parted out, particularly a 2.0.

The place where I usually see a ton of these for sale is on The Samba. Most seem to be a step away from the crusher and usually list at $2500 or less. If I had to guess, drivers to fully restored 914/4s track between $5500 - $8500. 914/6s fetch well over $10k depending on condition.

Hopefully, this helps and is not a statement of the screamingly obvious.

Cheers,
Tony