84 "gray market"?

[redstack]

I was talking to a friend about the 84 coupe he has. He was willing to sell. Pretty good shape, he's owned it for quite a while. Always garaged. Problems include front wheel bearings, steering column bearing? and a small rust area on a fender. I haven't really seen the car much, he rarely drives it.
But the thing is he described it as a" Grey market" car with euro specs. I had always thought that "grey market" cars were special models or not available here models.
Can anyone explain what would cause a common 911 to be considered a grey market car?

Some may note that I have been having a discussion going on a possible side yard find as well. It seems like a real chance that even at the ridiculous low offer I made it would end up costing about the same for either car.

My inclination is to go for the older running car, but there are some incentives for the 89 as well. Mostly that a buddy who would help restore it would take my hot shot miata in trade for his labors.

Thanks for your input

[Sunroof]

Simply, Grey Market cars are those that were not imported to the US dealer market and did not meet the USDOT safety standards (5 mph bumper, door protection, emission standards, etc). Back in the late 1970's and early 1980's when the the US dollar was low against the German Mark, airline pilots flying over to Germany were buying these cars straight out of used car lots and sending them home. I know because I bought a 1979 911SC from a guy in Atlanta who bought one back. The shipping was the greatest cost but it could not be let loose in the US without being changed to what they called, "DOT'd". Many shops were making the necessary changes to meet US Standards. Hundreds if not thousands came over.

You can identify a "grey market" car easily by the smaller black rubber bumpers on the rear of the SC's and some Carrera's. Several came with side marker lights (turbo bodied) on the front upper fenders. The "grey market" cars had a bit more horsepower due to the limited changes to the emissions. BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I found back then that Porsche dealers would not work on them because of the different specs, which to me was rather strange given that these were indeed true German Porsches. My local shop(s) did any work as needed.

Their is nothing wrong with buying a "grey market" Porsche as long as it has been maintained well. I had no problems with re-sale as many saw the Grey Market as better Porsches. Many felt that these cars were beat and driven too long and hard on the Autobahn and through European winter driving. Still, for those I knew who owned a "grey market"Porsche they thoroughly enjoyed them.

Bob
1973.5T

[redstack]

Thanks for the claification. I remember the craze and phrase, but I always thought of them as oddball special models.

[Matt Monson]

In 1984 a Euro Carrera had 231hp, while US models got 207. I consider that more than a few more hp. That is ten percent more power.

Never really understood devaluing and keeping grey market cars at arms length. As long as they are federalized and have some records they are generally better cars and I think now that they are vintage they are more attractive than US counterparts.

I've got a '78 Euro SC engine coming my way and think it is great that I get the bump in horsepower and can still pass my local vintage emissions testing with it with no issues.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Never really understood devaluing and keeping grey market cars at arms length. As long as they are federalized and have some records they are generally better cars and I think now that they are vintage they are more attractive than US counterparts.

Because sometimes the "federalization" was nothing more than a broom-job. Fraud, IOW.

Cars that have had half-@ssed work done to them are suspect, and enough of those suspect cars are on the market to cause concern.

I agree that the better, higher-compression motors make for more fun on the road, but it's the rest of the car that could be a problem.

I don't think I'd have any problems owning a properly-federalized car with good records, but all else being equal, I would choose a North American market car over a ROW car. And I think that is a prevaling sentiment, which drives the ROW cars' values down.

[Sunroof]

Perhaps its the stigma and the term, "grey market". As an owner I had no issues what so ever with my low mileage 1979 SC aside from the fact the car came without AC. The German Porsches were driven hard on the Autobahn, but hey, its a Porsche! It was no different then bringing them back new from a dealer back then aside from the updates/changes which is referenced here as "federalized". Us old guys always heard the updates referred to as DOT'd.

What bothered me back then was the attitude of the dealers who looked at these cars with dislike as if they were criminal and not allowed in the house! The local shops did not care as they were as much of the shops bread and butter as the infamous 2.7 engine in the 74 - 77 911's.

Bob

[Matt Monson]

I guess part of my failure to understand the stigma is because I have spent the last decade on the shop side of it. Pretty much every example I've ever seen come through has been a well tended example, including several 930s that were brought in during the years that Porsche was not importing them to North America.

Going back even further, I've also seen a number (and even owned one) of early European delivery vehicles from servicemen or vacationers who went over, picked up the car, and shipped it back after driving it for a while.

That's kind of where the disconnect occurs for me. European delivery cars don't seem to carry the stigma because even though they were federalized or potentially were built and delivered as US spec knowing where they would end up they were always American owned. But if the car got brought in used as a "grey market" import then they are questionable.

I understand if it is 1988 and a '79 SC is brought in with 50k mi on it and no records. But today how many SCs and 3.2 Carreras are out there running around with questionable records that were US cars when new? Lots of them. In that marketplace, I personally wouldn't discount a grey market car at all versus a US version if they were both 1984 Carreras with no records prior to the current owner and 150k mi on the ticker. Same car, same PPI, same gamble in buying.

[whiterabbit]

A grey market Euro car is worth more than a US model all things being equal. Better car and a much bigger pool of buyers. If anything the margin is getting higher.

[mobius911]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Because sometimes the "federalization" was nothing more than a broom-job. Fraud, IOW.

Cars that have had half-@ssed work done to them are suspect, and enough of those suspect cars are on the market to cause concern.

I agree that the better, higher-compression motors make for more fun on the road, but it's the rest of the car that could be a problem.

I don't think I'd have any problems owning a properly-federalized car with good records, but all else being equal, I would choose a North American market car over a ROW car. And I think that is a prevaling sentiment, which drives the ROW cars' values down.

I resemble that remark!

I bought a car in Germany and brought it over in 1984. The car was more than 5 years old and as such it got an EPA exemption, so the only changes to "federalize" the car were to meet the DOT requirements. Most of those changes fell into the category that Jeremy Clarkson refers to as "things to remind Americans that they are in a car." Buzzers for keys, buzzers and lights for seat belts, appropriate symbols for the turn signals, etc. So I guess one could describe what I did as "fraud" because none of the changes stayed on the car. I prefer to think of it as exercising restraint and good taste.

The U.S. dealers were royally pissed about all of these cars coming in that were bypassing their lots. They did a great marketing job spreading the claim that the cars were bastardized and unsafe, and ultimately got Congress to pass a bill that essentially ended the practice. Their lobbying effort was so good that the stigma hasn't completely worn off, even though it's now 25 years later.

I agree with the posters who say the grey market cars are actually preferable to the neutered, over-buzzered U.S. versions. The one caveat would be cars that had changes to the emission controls to meet EPA requirements. I'd be more wary of those.

[bwall]

The stigma was generated by your local factory authorized Porsche dealer and salesmen. They wanted to protect their market from competition. We saw the same thing about 12 years ago with Ferrari 360, BMW Z8 and Porsche GT2. Lots of those cars that came over then are now back in Europe.

Does anyone seriously think that a Porsche built to drive on the no-speed-limit Autobahn is somehow less safe than one built to drive 65MPH?

Or perhaps the designers/engineers/workers who built cars for Germany did a poor job but 'got their act together' when assembling them for the USA?

Now that the factory authorized dealers are not dealing in the older models, the stigma has gone away--they were the ones generating it, after all. If a European buyer is looking here in the USA they may even pay a premium for a ROW car.

[Josh D]

Another benefit of RoW grey market cars is they sometimes weren't as heavily optioned. US spec cars showed up with every option available so they could be sold at a premium. Stripped down models that were lighter and had more power were available to the RoW.

My car was spec'd without cruise control, no sunroof, no headlight washers and cloth center seats. Light and fast.

[manbridge 74]

The half-assed comment is correct for some.

I've seen door impact beams made from what looks like black iron gas pipe welded in two places b/c they are impossible to get in after door skin is on. Might be a concern for those who value safety over outright speed.

[dienstuhr]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

The half-assed comment is correct for some.

I've seen door impact beams made from what looks like black iron gas pipe welded in two places b/c they are impossible to get in after door skin is on. Might be a concern for those who value safety over outright speed.

Yes, and sometimes the "federalizers" apparently stuck sawed-off broomhandles in there

[whiterabbit]

Flash back 20 years and everyone was saying a US 74 Carerra was better than a Euro Model Carrera in the states............

As these cars get older its all about condition. If both cars are the same condition a Euro is worth more.