M96 cars: fixable time bombs?

[CA_WhaleTail]

Are the 996s great values if taken care of in time with new a IMS/RMS/water pump, or are they to be avoided at all costs? Seem very tempting until considering the downside risk that a blown engine means a totaled car. If resale prices are any indication, then the market has spoken.

So the question is- are they great values, or simply an expensive gamble?

[Matt Monson]

Great value. Once the bearing is dealt with they are very reliable. In fact even with the bearing not repaired they are a great value. The Internet makes the issue seem bigger than it really is.

[techweenie]

I agree with Matt, but I also am not a big believer in "privateer" bearing kits being better than Porsche factory bearings.

So with the factory parts, you have something like a 2% chance of IMS failure (the other stuff is minor by comparison) and you have a very inexpensive car -- in terms of bang for the buck -- in the meantime. How lucky are you?

[dporsche74]

996 is a great Car.!!!Everyday driver
I ALWAYS disliked them since they came out . But now for the price ..very awesome. \\
Whats Better??? I have had mine for 5 yrs now ..145K miles
So far brakes axles, tie rods. a arms. everything so easy to fix and cheap too.
IMS and all that is a few very few cry babies online making huge stinks.
Look at a autotrader. most 996 all have over 100K miles... some i see with close to 200K now.
if 40-50K car ..meh... but for 10-20K .. its really fun.. most ppl hate it .. flip you off and beep horns at you .. unlike a longhood 911 get all waves and big smiles.
its a fun contrast
In future ..the first water colded 911?? should we pack them away like the old MFI cars. something to ponder

[thepenguin99]

Is the 996 an expensive gamble? Yea I think so. I also think the gamble has pretty good odds. You see too many cars for sale with "rebuilt engine" or "new engine" in the ad to stick your head in the sand and say the cars don't have issues. Really expensive ones too. That said, the odds of getting a good one are...pretty good. I really don't know the numbers on critical failures. That said, even if 10% of the cars out there with 60-70k miles have had engine problems I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

[CA_WhaleTail]

thanks for the input...uncertainty is certainly a theme here...and the downside risk is 20K, Yes the internet chatter is a factor, and the fear factor seems to fill the data void.

Are these IMS failures catastrophic or preceded by pre-failure period? I suppose an oil test can be part of a PPI, and then lower the risk with 2 to 4K worth of preventative maintenance should the diagnostics show increased metal content? Our host regards the IMS to be a routine maintenance replacement item, so that's a possible course of action.

Or, as is often stated, get the newest best maintained Porsche one can afford. In this case (me) that means wait, and save some more cash.

[Matt Monson]

Doing the actual ims repair isn't even required. Back when these were running in Grand Am Koni Challenge, before the ims replacement bearing was an option, they just opened it up and ripped the cover off the sealed bearing. It is the fact that the bearing is sealed that is the root of the problem. Remove the seal, remove the problem until it is time to rebuild the engine.

[G450X]

Matt seems to have nailed it. A great value if you like the looks and performance.

A friend just picked up a minty '02 C4S for around $25k. The car was loaded with options (full leather interior, alcantera headliner, sport seats, etc..) and even though the miles were up there (80k), it ran and drove out very good. I was surprised at the steering sharpness, I always thought the extra drive shaft took some of that away. The interior held up very well, I think the manner of care given is key, build quality seemed fine to me.

The only negatives I could find in it was that it did lack some charm of the older air cooled models (but the same could be said of a '67 911 versus a '57 356), the gearbox was a bit "light" in throw - I prefer a bit more effort for feedback (not sure if that's a C4 versus C2 issue), and it was too quiet (that flat six needs to be heard). It had fantastic brakes and a nice push - it was very quick.

Too much forum reading will make you blind. I have a mint e46 M3 I special ordered new, and according to the forums my vanos should break tabs and the sub-frame should tear at any time. Then again, I've seem many e46 M3s top 200k miles with no trouble...

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by G450X

Too much forum reading will make you blind.

I'm nearsighted, so I must have stopped just in time.

[dcautomotive]

We do a pretty steady trade in repairing dead IMS motors. The repair shop/parts house view is necessarily skewed, as people don't bring there perfectly good cars to us to show off too often. But we stay awfully busy fixing M96's. Casual-ish observation says most of them with over 75K or so have had the motor replaced, or had the IMS and assorted other BS dealt with earlier in life. I think the 996TT is the bargain myself for what they are and what they are going for now.

In the least, the 996 is worth fixing right now unless it's unusually ragged, most of the poor 986's are so depreciated a dead motor is a total loss unless one can find a good used unit cheap.

[VincentVega]

Or, as is often stated, get the newest best maintained Porsche one can afford. In this case (me) that means wait, and save some more cash.

This.

Call it Internet fodder if you want but I know more than a few local guys that have been through at least 1 m96 engine.

Great cars to drive but dont kid yourself thinking the engine issues cant/wont happen to you.

[techweenie]

It's largely anecdotal.

You want facts, they are easy to get. Look at the aftermarket service contract business. Get an estimate for an extended drivetrain warranty on a 996 vs., say an M3 or S4. If M96 failures are as common as online chatter has it, then those warranty prices would be much higher for the Porsche.

[DeFreest]

Originally Posted by dcautomotive

We do a pretty steady trade in repairing dead IMS motors. The repair shop/parts house view is necessarily skewed, as people don't bring there perfectly good cars to us to show off too often. But we stay awfully busy fixing M96's. Casual-ish observation says most of them with over 75K or so have had the motor replaced, or had the IMS and assorted other BS dealt with earlier in life. I think the 996TT is the bargain myself for what they are and what they are going for now.

In the least, the 996 is worth fixing right now unless it's unusually ragged, most of the poor 986's are so depreciated a dead motor is a total loss unless one can find a good used unit cheap.

The IMS issue doesn't apply to the TT 996? Just wondering as I'm looking at one now and thought the TT engines were a different block and exempt for the IMS problem.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by DeFreest

The IMS issue doesn't apply to the TT 996? Just wondering as I'm looking at one now and thought the TT engines were a different block and exempt for the IMS problem.

I think that was a runon thought. You are correct, TTs are Mezger based and not M96 engines.

[dcautomotive]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I think that was a runon thought. You are correct, TTs are Mezger based and not M96 engines.

And you can't give one away, relative to a M96, which we can't build enough of.
It ain't scientific but it's what I consider a clue after a number of years of observation.

[dporsche74]

according to Red book over 34.000+ 996 units made just for the for 1999 model year. prob more for MY00 & MY01 too. thats ALOT of cars for Porsche..
since most air colded yrs are 5-10K units made.
no wonder DCauto your fixing the m96 mostly now..

[dcautomotive]

Very true.
As I said, unscientific, purely observation from experience.
Ask me again in a few years about the MA1 repair rate vs M96
and maybe we'll have some fun hindsight-ing.

That statistic works both ways too if you think about it....

[KNS]

Have any problems been cropping up on the MA1 engines? Sorry if a bit off topic...

[dcautomotive]

Couldn't tell you, too new for us still.

It would be nice to be able to sell good used motors economically again though.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by KNS

Have any problems been cropping up on the MA1 engines? Sorry if a bit off topic...

We've had very little issues with them in Grand Am. Three 3.8l Carrera swapped Caymans ran the 24 Hours of Daytona without incident. We've also been running them for 2 years in GS class in Conti. It's a really solid platform.