996 Pricing

[Halm]

We all seem to know that early (1999 - 2000) 996's are really inexpensive to buy. I know first hand as I tried to sell my fully refreshed '99 early this spring and the only offer I got was $15k. So I kept it and it is on its way to becoming a DE vehicle.

But that said, at what year does the IMS / AOS / RMS stigma wear off? Why is, for example a 2003 model, so much more than a comparable '00? They have the same fatal flaws and are pretty much the same cars.

I must be missing something. Can someone help me out? Techweenie, I hope you will chime in here. You seem to have a good handle on today's pricing.

[thepenguin99]

How long did it take for the mid years to gain some popularity and the 2.7 stigma to wear off a bit? My guess is at least that long. It isn't just the engine issues with the 996 being unloved. People don't like the headlights, think the interior looks cheap, etc. I think the whole "OMG!!! WATER COOLING!! NOOOOOO" issues people had are gone though. That's something.

I actually like the 996 but when you compare the interior or exterior looks to a 993 or 997 it simply loses. That combined with widely publicised engine issues and porsche jacking up reman engine prices through the roof isn't helping it.

As for the 02+ vs 99-01 values I have no idea. Makes little sense to me. As you said the only changes are 20 more HP, headlights, interior tweaks, glass in vert top, etc. Small stuff. The only issues I know that were more prevalent in the 3.4 were d chunk and intermix. Those, from my understanding, tended to be lower mile issues that should be weeded out 10+ years down the road.

[Bristol]

Well the newer cars are... well... newer! I think that there is a general impression that some initial transition issues to the water cooled platform would have been sorted out by '02.

For me though it's the headlights. I have an '03 C4S and I love the headlights, better than any other Porsche. Maybe I'm too young (42 yrs old) and progressive (yes, I listen to Dubstep), but I just think that the 997 and 991 headlight design is boring and too traditional. I want to drive a Porsche for this generation. I don't want to drive my grandpa's Porsche unless it IS my grandpa's Porsche. I've got older air cooled P-cars that look the part and that's cool, but I thought it was really refreshing when Porsche broke with tradition and did something different with the water cooled cars. The first headlights missed the mark, but the later ones nailed it, IMHO. That's part of why I'm holding onto my '03 C4S - because I love the car, but also because I think in the far future this model may just be the most collectible and desirable of the 996/997 era - cool headlights, turbo brakes, turbo suspension, full leather, wide body, PSM, but not the high running/repair cost/complexity of the turbo.

Kirk

[G450X]

The engine stigma "wears off," as you put it, with the 9A1 engine in 2009.

That chassis is way too complicated to make a cost effective DIY project worth while (unlike an old SC/Carrera) right now. I can perform quite a few projects on my old SC, but on a 996, not so much. Who cares about cold AC if the IMS grenades the engine and a new one costs as much as the car is worth...

They could be a big money pit, or you could get lucky. I recall a recent Excellence magazine article where they described the IMS problem as not "if" but "when" (they fail) - lets see where they are in 10 years. I bet many will have been properly fixed/sorted and will have some value much like like mid-year 2.7 powered cars that have been "fixed."

[Halm]

Maybe I wasn't clear with my question last night. If a '99 / '00 is selling for mid to high teens, why would an '03 / '04 be as much as $20k more? Yes, a lot of the interior pieces were cleaned up and made more attractive. But when all is said and done, it is still a M96 motor.

Are we just playing the odds that as the factory improved the IMS, RMS, etc that, the probability of failure decreases?

I am not complaining with this post or arguing against the higher prices. I just don't get later models get a pricing pass with the same warts and scars as the earlier cars.

[thepenguin99]

996 values, to me, don't make a ton of sense between models. The 99-01 cars look like a deal if you are willing to do the IMS, DIY other maintenence, and pray the engine doesn't blow. The TT models also seem like a great deal if you can up the budget that far. I, like you, don't really get the 02+ non-turbo values because the c2 is significantly more money than earlier cars with similar issues. The C4S also doesn't make sense to me because they seem to sell for 6-7k less than similar TT models. 6-7k for an engine that doesn't grenade, more power, and a significantly higher "new" price seems like a no brainer. Not to mention the turbo actually has a shot at not depreciating much, if at all, from this point. I personally think, while the early 99-01 cars are good $$/fun ratio, they will continue to slowly fall price wise similar to other used cars. That is fine as long as you realize going in it's a car not an investment.

[Matt Monson]

The ims gets all the attention but the 996 gearbox is a problem child too. There were changes made mid production in 2001 that improved their reliability as well as remedied most of the 2nd gear popout issue.

However at this point many of turn have been repaired though the stigma still remains.

[COLB]

How long did it take for the mid years to gain some popularity and the 2.7 stigma to wear off a bit?

I expect that once all of the 2.7 engines had been either rebuilt or replaced with 3.0s, a fair bit of the stigma wore off.

We are still a long way from that with the 996.

Interesting that the 996 failure rate is likely MUCH less than the 2.7 was.

But people are a lot less tolerant of major engine work than they used to be -- partially because the repair cost is a much bigger percentage of the vehicle value.

[racer]

3.6. Its about bragging rights. A 02+ has the larger motor.. mor hp.. restyled headlight/fenders, nicer interior imho as well.

There's always been that premium.. when new and still when used. Add in a 4S body (mmm widebody) for another little price bump.

Midyears have only gained popularity only since longhoods became too expensive. I can't count how many midyears I've seen cut up (flares) and large motors dropped into over the years. Heck, lots of long hoods were deemed "old, slow" etc in the 1980s. they were a "dime a dozen". Same was true with midyears.

In fact, the 996 IS the modern midyear. Doesn't hurt that there were so many made that it dilutes the market as well.

[MuffinMan]

Hey, Racer, I think you're talking about my 1977 911S here! Something about flared fenders and a 3.6 varioram. Sadly, I think it will be going on the block later this summer.

Interesting analogy about the 996 being the modern day midyear, and it's hard to argue otherwise.

[geshaghi]

I've owned my 1999 996 since 2001. It was a very early tourist delivery car (picked up by the PO at the factory in April 1998). I am the second owner and have put almost 100,000 miles on this car. It has been my daily driver on and off for the last 12 years. During my ownership, the car has required nothing more than routine maintenance, two water pumps, a water reservoir, the air-oil separator, a radiator fan, a starter and some replacement hoses. At 95,000 miles, I replaced the clutch as it was starting to slip and, since I was in there, I did the IMS bearing. Cheap insurance, but I think the problem is overblown. Porsche made a lot of these cars. I have never spoken with anyone who has personally experienced an IMS failure. While we can debate whether Chicken Little is correct, he certainly has sold a lot of IMS bearings at $650 each. There are now some less expensive options, including a Pelican branded IMS bearing retrofit kit. Installing the retrofit isn't too difficult and most skilled DIY'ers should be able to do this in a day or weekend at the most. Even if you have to pay a shop to do the work, it isn't that expensive. At $15k, the 996 is a sports car bargain. It's still a Porsche, and I still enjoying driving the car.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by geshaghi

I think the problem is overblown. Porsche made a lot of these cars. I have never spoken with anyone who has personally experienced an IMS failure.

While it's true that the folks whose motors don't blow up are quiet - and those who have it happen to them really aren't, I can't help remembering one time I swung by the shop for something.

Workshop was full of trashed M96 motors; LOL. I couldn't believe it. 6 customer motors had chosen the same week to blow up - and this was an independent, not a main dealer...

Only Porsche know the real numbers.

[carjmark]

I don't see $20K on a 99'/00' versus an 03'. As mentioned the 3.6 w/+ power, minor upgrades and 3 - 4 years newer are going to make it a more attractive car all else equal. Also more dealers seem to be selling these, the mileage is proportionately lower on average and IMS was redesigned (more effective for marketing than longevity).

To cut to the chase my guess is there's more like a $5 or $6K spread in actual sales prices comparing like cars. Many of the asking prices I see on 02' and 03' cars are wishful thinking and the cars likely sell well under $30K, they probably sell closer to $25K with 99'/01's closer to $20K, all obviously differing according to condition, documentation and particulars.