Because SCs are skyrocketing, 996s worth another look?

[comintern]

If ever I buy another Porsche, it will be a 996tt. The old ones have character, panache, soul and are a fking **** to drive every day and are a **** to drive on the weekends too, much to my surprise. Gimme a 996 daily and I will be one.

Com

[COLB]

Longterm even at todays prices or more an SC makes way more sense than a 996.

From a dollar value standpoint, yes.

But as a summer daily driver in Texas, not so much. An M3 or an S4 -- those are modern cars, and valid choices if you are considering a 996. Neither are slam dunk choices, particularly from a reliability standpoint.

[rustygreg]

/Drive Channel on YouTube just posted a 30 minute video yesterday discussing various 911 values; interesting view.

Here's Why You Must Buy a 911 Today

[jsoderbe]

Hi,

As a previous owner of two 996:es (01 stick and 00 tip, both convertibles) I can say thay I will never ever buy another one. Its not just the IMS, EVERYTHING breaks on these cars. Electronics, tip trans, the cheap interior plastics, gagues, chassis, power top, clutch, seats. Plus that there are at least 3 different ways the engine will cost $12k to repair: IMS, D-chunk and cracked heads. Pick your choice, one of them will likely happen to every car.

On the plus side the breaks are superb, and many parts are easy to work on because they are built with the quality of a cheap compact.

Biggest problem is that the engine cant really be repaired like older aircooled Porsche engines, at least not without severe money and a speciality shop.

I could understand to buy one for $10k so it can be parted out when it blows up, but spending $25k on a car that will cost a fortune to repair/maintain isnt a wise choice. Hence the steep depriciation, now also happening to 997 and 991.

Add to that the overall feeleng of the car; it could easily be mistaken for a BMW coupe, Nissan 370 or ten other cars.

I went to a 964 as a summer DD, and sure it is expensive to own, but at least it is appreciating. And I can repair all the typical problems with the car right in my garage. And it has the true Porsche feeleing. And the true Porsche look, unlike the 993 front.

So to summarize, I dont think they are worth another look as a substitute to an aircooled 911....


Regards,

Johan

[metzger]

Good response, Johan. Interesting to note the overall feel of the car being comparable to so many others. I was shocked when I test drove a 996 last year and it felt exactly like my '91 Nissan 300zx, but it didn't seem to handle as well. I had around $4,000 in that car's suspension so I can't fault the 996 too much, but the overall feel was just surprising. I liked it as it was such a familiar experience, but it didn't feel like a 911.

[COLB]

I've driven 996s, but never owned one. There is no question the interior of the 996/986 cars appeared cheap considering the price.

My 987 had a much nicer interior, and I never had any issues with it -- mechanically or otherwise.

Though they have less power than the 911s, the 987s were also smaller cars, and probably handled better.

[PushingMyLuck]

jsoderbe, is the 997 also considered a POS like the 996?

[dporsche74]

haaha oh yeah 996 997 all POS Ok . . but smelly accordion bumpers torsion bar SC rock
haha come on ...

[Matt Monson]

jsoderbe, is the 997 also considered a POS like the 996?

You can't afford one.

[jsoderbe]

I just said I cant afford a 996.... :-) so I definately cant afford a 997 which depriciates even faster. Maybe afford is the wrong word, I am just too cheap. No thanks. And for the record I had no catastrophic failures in either car, just sooo many annoying and expensive problems.

The TS asked if a 996 is worth looking at when the SC:s are sky rocketing, and I shared my opinion. Of course an aircooled 911 is a different kind of vehicle, but for me the choice is easy. Super easy! :-)


Johan

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by jsoderbe

I just said I cant afford a 996.... :-) so I definately cant afford a 997 which depriciates even faster. Maybe afford is the wrong word, I am just too cheap. No thanks. And for the record I had no catastrophic failures in either car, just sooo many annoying and expensive problems.

The TS asked if a 996 is worth looking at when the SC:s are sky rocketing, and I shared my opinion. Of course an aircooled 911 is a different kind of vehicle, but for me the choice is easy. Super easy! :-)


Johan

That was for PML.

[Cluskera]

Originally Posted by COLB

I would guess they are up ~30-40% since the summer of 2012.

Choose the adjective that seems most appropriate.

Perhaps more interesting, the values of 74-77 mid years are pretty much tracking with comparable SCs now.

I think that might be a US trait more than a worldwide one is the only small caveat I'd mention.

For example, regardless of adverts and eBay auctions a good SC costs you circa £16k in UK two years ago.

At best that might've gone to £18k in two years.

I think one reason for increasing prices in the US is that people are exporting a lot of good SCs due to fewer corrosion issues on average.

Not that this is important - just a thought.

[whiterabbit]

Cars have gone up more in the US than UK recently because the US was so undervalued for air cooled 911's. Now they are getting closer in price to LHD cars in the UK.

As for smelly, torsion bars, whiney noise etc............ this is why everyone wants an air cooled car. I drove a workmates 991 and it honestly could be a BMW in many ways. It has lost all the 911 character. To me things went downhill with the 993 and the awful headlamps and got worse with the 996.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Cluskera

I think that might be a US trait more than a worldwide one is the only small caveat I'd mention.

For example, regardless of adverts and eBay auctions a good SC costs you circa £16k in UK two years ago.

At best that might've gone to £18k in two years.

I think one reason for increasing prices in the US is that people are exporting a lot of good SCs due to fewer corrosion issues on average.

Not that this is important - just a thought.

Your last point is very true -- RHD cars are less prone to export to the continent, so your market is a bit more closed.

But I would note that your prices were already elevated according to the numbers you provided: 16k pounds is roughly $26k+; 18k pounds is $29+

If the UK market is not rising at the same pace, it may be because they were already elevated in price.

[Cluskera]

Originally Posted by COLB

Your last point is very true -- RHD cars are less prone to export to the continent, so your market is a bit more closed.

But I would note that your prices were already elevated according to the numbers you provided: 16k pounds is roughly $26k+; 18k pounds is $29+

If the UK market is not rising at the same pace, it may be because they were already elevated in price.

Makes sense - I wonder what the ceiling will be .... there are many who argue a good SC is 90% of the fabled RS experience.

90% of the price would be nice! If you own one..

[jsoderbe]

In terms of US aircooled Porche prices; what we see is a correction to the RoW pricing. US prices have been hurt by the recession in 2009, and the market forces have seen the irregularity. Which mean the market have since worked to close the gap by exporting thousands of Porsches to Europe.

Germany have paid top Euro for 911's many years now, and thee have been a steady stream of aircooled Porsches going there. A SC has been a $35k+ car for maybe 5 years already. A nice longhood has been $60k+.

Now the price gap is finally closing, and as the US economy recovers I think the demand for cars will be higher than the supply. This mean US prices will be strong for some time to come. We already see crazy prices for "S" models, meaning they definately will start to ship FROM Europe soon, if not already.

I dont see anyone shipping SC's back to the US, though. There was too many made of them, sure a nice one will hold its value and even appreciate, but they wont reach longhood money.

What I am saying is that $10k for a nice SC wasnt the correct price for the car, it was simply a reaction of low demand (no one had money due to recession) and too much supply (everyone needed money due to recession).

There are some problems with my reasoning, for example why a nice longhood driver was maybe $10k before the recession, but I leave that to someone else to discuss.... :-)


Regards,

Johan

[COLB]

What I am saying is that $10k for a nice SC wasnt the correct price for the car, it was simply a reaction of low demand (no one had money due to recession) and too much supply (everyone needed money due to recession).

There are some problems with my reasoning, for example why a nice longhood driver was maybe $10k before the recession, but I leave that to someone else to discuss.... :-)

I don't have much argument with your reasoning, but I think you are over-playing the effects of the recession -- which were actually a relatively short downward blip in prices. SCs were trading in the teens prior to the recession, maybe dropped 1-3K from late 2008-2010, and have since made that up and much more.

[Halm]

I currently own both. They could not be more different. There is not a quantitative measurement in which the 996 is not a better car. It is clearly a better car as a DD and a lot more fun on the track.

But the SC makes sounds like no other, has a smell unique to air/oil cooled cars and a solid feel that can't be duplicated.

Choose your poison. You can't go wrong.

[Cluskera]

Originally Posted by jsoderbe

In terms of US aircooled Porche prices; what we see is a correction to the RoW pricing. US prices have been hurt by the recession in 2009, and the market forces have seen the irregularity. Which mean the market have since worked to close the gap by exporting thousands of Porsches to Europe.

Germany have paid top Euro for 911's many years now, and thee have been a steady stream of aircooled Porsches going there. A SC has been a $35k+ car for maybe 5 years already. A nice longhood has been $60k+.

Now the price gap is finally closing, and as the US economy recovers I think the demand for cars will be higher than the supply. This mean US prices will be strong for some time to come. We already see crazy prices for "S" models, meaning they definately will start to ship FROM Europe soon, if not already.

I dont see anyone shipping SC's back to the US, though. There was too many made of them, sure a nice one will hold its value and even appreciate, but they wont reach longhood money.

What I am saying is that $10k for a nice SC wasnt the correct price for the car, it was simply a reaction of low demand (no one had money due to recession) and too much supply (everyone needed money due to recession).

There are some problems with my reasoning, for example why a nice longhood driver was maybe $10k before the recession, but I leave that to someone else to discuss.... :-)


Regards,

Johan

one other factor I was going to label as 'small' and as I type I'm less sure - the number of SCs being backdated to look like early cars or become early cars.

That too presses on supply. The SC experiences this an awful lot . More may have been made but I wonder how many SCs still on the road are even still true SCs.....this too squeezes supply...

Only now perhaps is the strength of an SC (proper unmolested with heritage) being realised.

[Cluskera]

Originally Posted by Halm

I currently own both. They could not be more different. There is not a quantitative measurement in which the 996 is not a better car. It is clearly a better car as a DD and a lot more fun on the track.

But the SC makes sounds like no other, has a smell unique to air/oil cooled cars and a solid feel that can't be duplicated.

Choose your poison. You can't go wrong.

My one fear with my SC is that there is a generational work at play.

The SC is undoubtably one of those for which 0-60 numbers mean nothing. The SC is a savage in my view in terms of higher end torque. The engineering puts it in the realms of higher spec cars.

But it's an old car.

And could I convince a 30 year old in ten years time to buy it when he has driven modern competitors. I fear not.

The most likely sale if ultimately you decide you may will be difficult if selling to someone not already indoctrinated in the ways. And that will possibly become a rarer thing.

Solution ? Buy one and drive it. My own opinion is just not to buy one with some aspiration to sell it on in fifteen years once it has increased in value.

I have to say though - overall I do think it will ultimately double in value....