Impact to value - Up or down?

[.PORSCHE.]

So here is a question I don't know how to answer: Imagine a numbers matching 1973 911T. The car has all OEM 2.4S engine internals. Would having 2.4S parts installed (013 MFI pump, 312 stacks, etc.) have a positive or negative impact to the value of the car? Or would a 911T MFI system, externally correct for a 2.4T (correct part numbers) but rebuilt to 2.4S specs be viewed more positively by current and future buyers of such cars? Would it be better to have the original 911T parts than 2.4S parts, notwithstanding the obscene cost of 2.4S parts? I could lean either way...

[christiandk]

Very good question. I guess it would depend on the specific car and the buyer.

[Matt Monson]

The S mfi parts are worth a bunch of money all on their own. The value of the car will be increased based on that even if the new owner intended to return the car to stock. Getting and having the T components to sell with it, but not installed will make the car easier to sell but not really more valuable. The added value is in the S pump and stacks.

[.PORSCHE.]

Hmmmm... Yes, but would finicky collector types say that "the car has incorrect parts installed, so it's value is diminished", even though the parts installed are very valuable? Seems an insane, but plausible scenario. What do you think?

[Nick Triesch]

Collector types in all ares such as Gibson or Fender guitars or rare Martin D28 guitars always want an original instrument. Such as a pre war herring bone D28. It is the same with antique radios or anything collectable. Same goes with cars. A matching numbers car with all the correct parts will always sell at some time for way more cash. I remember years ago at a high end Porsche shop in San Diego a guy brought in a 1950's Speedster. He asked the owner to install a 911 motor in the car. The owner, Dieter, begged the man not to modify the car and buy a 911 instead. Then Dieter bought the un restored speedster. He used it for a daily driver. It really is not insane to keep cars original, it is the correct thing to do. But if folks do modify their old Porsche cars that is up to them, it will just make our unmolested cars that much more valuable.

[.PORSCHE.]

As a collector of vintage instruments, I appreciate the analogy. But I don't think it's a fair comparison, really. Any change to a guitar, even refreshing things that make a guitar playable, like frets or machine heads, can negatively impact the value of a guitar. Even if machine heads are of the same vintage as the originals, collectors may frown on the change. Imagine not changing brake pads or spark plugs on your 1959 Porsche. Exaggerating for effect, with your analogy, any engine that was rebuilt along the day would harm the value of a car.

I would say that a fairer analogy would be with a vintage Fender or Gibson that has had its body routed for new, upgraded pickups. The wood can never go back to being "unrolled". In the same way, bolting on a 911S MFI pump and plastic stacks can be completely reversed. Even heads, cams, pistons and cylinders can be put back to factory specs. Correct, dated parts are plentiful if the originals were tossed. No problem.

Do you agree?

[speeder]

For a true purist collector, 100% stock is always desired or required. The issue here Is that 911Ts have never been very collectible and performance improvement that do not negatively affect the appearance or driving character have always been desirable.

There is a big "if", and that is that they are mods considered desirable by most enthusiasts. A high quality rebuild to S specs has always been desirable.

Back in the "good old days", when there were concours early S cars in the back of every Pano for sale, most had minor performance mods.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by speeder

For a true purist collector, 100% stock is always desired or required. The issue here Is that 911Ts have never been very collectible and performance improvement that do not negatively affect the appearance or driving character have always been desirable.

Never say never, but I would trust speeder on this. Even though they are really desirable right now -- and expensive -- they are still not the top of the line cars that are/will be concours "collectibles."

If you have the money to prep a car for Pebble Beach -- and the degree of originality required for venues like that -- it won't be a T.

It will be an early S. Or a soft-window Targa. Or a SWB 65.

So who exactly is the "collector" who is going to be so anal about a 911T as to frown on original S performance parts -- which were period upgrades?

That guy might exist, but I'm guessing he will be a rarity in the field of potential T buyers, many of whom want a car they can drive. This majority would buy an S if they could afford one, and likely consider a T with period S upgrades as a nice compromise they would likely pay a premium for.

[Nick Triesch]

No I do not agree because I think many times, even if you could keep or find the vintage parts, most people would not put them back on. Then over time it would be harder to find them. Then the car sells and then sells again. Probably a lot of future buyers would not even think to put them back on. For me...I just think keep a 911 or any collectable as original as possible. Also speeder, The 911Ts may have not been that collectable in the past but they sure will be soon. I had a 356b for several years. Paid $8000 for it in about 1988, Sold it in 1999 for $9200. The 356b was never the super desirable 356. A nice example today sells for around $75,000. Just my HO but this is why I think it is better to keep our cars original . Nick Or whatever floats your boat. BTW .PORSCHE. my 1923 Gibson snake head A type mandolin 100% original. It is worth a lot more because of that.

[COLB]

Does a 356b with an original engine case that has been rebuilt with more HP take a value hit?

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by .PORSCHE.

Hmmmm... Yes, but would finicky collector types say that "the car has incorrect parts installed, so it's value is diminished", even though the parts installed are very valuable? Seems an insane, but plausible scenario. What do you think?

A collector type of flipper who took you for a sucker would feed you that line. I would tell that buyer to get lost because his agenda is not a correct original car. His age agenda is profit pure and simple

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by COLB

Does a 356b with an original engine case that has been rebuilt with more HP take a value hit?

In my experience, no. We built a lot of cars with Shasta big bore kits. Reality is its invisible. I could provide receipts on the rebuild but I've never seen it raised as an issue. And we built about two 356 engines a month and sold on average one 356 a month in the 7 years (early to late 2000's) I was at Carquip.

[.PORSCHE.]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

BTW .PORSCHE. my 1923 Gibson snake head A type mandolin 100% original. It is worth a lot more because of that.

Nick, I agree it's better to keep vintage guitars original. Absolutely! But my point was that it isn't a very good analogy with vintage cars. I can tell you that any one of my guitars that is not completely original is a "player". Still valuable, but not at all like an untouched one.

But my point was different. An unplayable vintage guitar is worth less when it is refretted, making it playable again, for example. But is a vintage car less valuable if it's kept in drivable state? I cannot imagine owning a car that cannot be driven because it can't be fixed if it's broken. Why bother?

If a car needs to be rebuilt, it can be done without affecting the value, except for an increase in value if original parts are installed,IMHO. If bolt-on parts are added, this should not have a negative effect either. I don't know that for a fact, but that's my sense. Maybe converting a 2.4 to a 2.7 would because it requires the case to be irreversibly modified would be a bad thing. But adding different but OEM engine internals, or bolt-on (and bolt-off) ancillaries should not really matter. Right?

I've seen a 911T that was converted to a 912 engine. That's a problem. But can a 911T that's converted to 911E or 911S specs be lumped into the same category?

I truly don't know!

[Matt Monson]

Do this, since you seem unconvinced. Join the Early S registry. Post the number off the S injection pump and ask what it is worth. Sit back, relax, and get your mind blown.

Yes, it is that black and white. Anyone who tells you that S pump devalues a T wants to rip you off or doesn't have a clue. Seriously.

[.PORSCHE.]

I am convinced you are right, Matt. Thanks!

[Matt Monson]

I hope you understand I wasn't trying to be rude. But I've seen S longblocks sell for more than complete driver quality Ts. T-s are totally becoming collectible, but concours cars are barely tickling 6 figures. Early S variants are bringing 3-4 times the money.

We sold an RS pump for around $10k ten years ago and were amazed. I'm scared to think what that pump would bring today. Maybe as much as 5 times that!

[.PORSCHE.]

Not at all! I do believe you are right.

All things being equal, though, having both systems on a shelf, would it make more sense to install a modified 2.4T MFi system or a 2.4S MFI system? This is the question I would like to answer. Another question is the cost to modify a 2.4T pump to 2.4S spec. I imagine just that is something like $2,000. If that cost is too high, then it becomes a true no brainier.

[COLB]

If you have the parts, and have the car, I would definitely put them on a T.

[Matt Monson]

I think I get the question better now. If the S parts are all it takes to make the car run and they are there use them. I surely wouldn't spend a cent on gathering up the T parts if they are missing and convert them to S spec to work right with an engine that is already S spec.