Selling advice on originality needed...

[sojahseh]

I'm getting ready to sell a car that I found locally and I was wondering just how prized originality is with these cars. The car in question is a 1987 Cabriolet with 35K miles on it. It is a one owner car with zero mods etc. It was owned by a guy who was not anal about the car, but serviced it properly and cared for it. It is not flawless, but it really nice, and is totally original, paint included.

The question I had was with regard to the top. It too is original and is in need of replacing. It's not terrible but there are two small holes in it from wear. Should I replace it prior to selling or leave it in the spirit of originality?

[maninblack]

Originally Posted by sojahseh

I'm getting ready to sell a car that I found locally and I was wondering just how prized originality is with these cars. The car in question is a 1987 Cabriolet with 35K miles on it. It is a one owner car with zero mods etc. It was owned by a guy who was not anal about the car, but serviced it properly and cared for it. It is not flawless, but it really nice, and is totally original, paint included.

The question I had was with regard to the top. It too is original and is in need of replacing. It's not terrible but there are two small holes in it from wear. Should I replace it prior to selling or leave it in the spirit of originality?

If the top is done right, it won't be an issue for anyone. I'd have it done.

[COLB]

agree with maninblack.

I would pay the few extra hundred for the original pattern german fabric, though. It is not much more money -- installation costs as much or more than the top itself does.

[MrBonus]

The eye test is going to be more valuable than having an original top. These cars aren't rare or old enough that someone is finding value in a completely untouched barn find; they're still drivers.

Plus, I would consider a top a wear item, no different than trim, seals, or gaskets.

[sojahseh]

I kind of figured that would be the consensus.

Any suggestions on a top installer in Connecticut?

[speeder]

I'm going to go against the grain and say leave it. You will not get more than the cost of a correct replacement top difference for the car if you change it and why not let the new owner hassle with any potential problems with installation, QC, etc.?

Unless the present top is in tatters, any potential buyer is going to just factor in the wear on the OG top in their offer. The car is not pristine anyways and the market is unusually strong right now, you won't get more than the cost of top difference. And PLENTY can go wrong with a rag top replacement if you choose the wrong installer. They will all claim that they are the best around, tons of experience, yadayadayada....

If it's a power top car, don't even consider having anyone other than the best shop on the east coast do it. If the install is not perfect, it will be tight and not lock electrically after a while. I've seen this, lots of fun. If you use other than OEM German fabric in correct color, you will devalue the car.

[Matt Monson]

I agree with Speeder.

[X JBM X]

I also agree with Speeder. I don't think the sale price of the car with a new top will offset the cost of the top and the installation prior to the sale.

[COLB]

Speedster is certainly correct if you are basically selling your car "as is" -- and for 90% of the cabs going on the market, you probably won't get your money out of it.

Your car may be a different case. If it is all stock -- down to the radio, wheel, etc -- and the mileage is verifiable at 35k -- it is a car that could fetch a hefty premium if you put the extra effort into getting it completely sorted.

You mentioned that the previous owner wasn't anal about it -- if a couple of weekends of OCD analness can get the car up to a really high standard, and you take the time to market it properly, it is probably worth the money to fix what is wrong.

[speeder]

And make it less original in the process? Sorry, that logic does not work. Someone might prefer it with the OG top, even with minor blemishes. I would.

[christiandk]

^+1

[COLB]

Originally Posted by speeder

And make it less original in the process? Sorry, that logic does not work. Someone might prefer it with the OG top, even with minor blemishes. I would.

Good point -- and maybe I am wrong. The car is not a pure garage survivor that got parked with its original tires, brake pads, belts, etc. If it were, it would be a no-brainer.

Is original and slightly damaged better than "correct" and perfect?

For paint -- I would definitely say yes. For convertible tops it is less cut & dried.

What about a cracked and warped dash?

I would guess it depends on what the car is intended for, and whether patina is preferred to replacements. A 87 cab is probably different than a 1950s speedster.

[Sox Fan]

Originally Posted by COLB

Speedster is certainly correct if you are basically selling your car "as is" -- and for 90% of the cabs going on the market, you probably won't get your money out of it.

Your car may be a different case. If it is all stock -- down to the radio, wheel, etc -- and the mileage is verifiable at 35k -- it is a car that could fetch a hefty premium if you put the extra effort into getting it completely sorted.

You mentioned that the previous owner wasn't anal about it -- if a couple of weekends of OCD analness can get the car up to a really high standard, and you take the time to market it properly, it is probably worth the money to fix what is wrong.

I agree with Colb. I would replace the top and detail it to death. Tired looking paint and a damaged top will
scare away the same buyer that will be dazzled with a shiny looking car. Remember, the people buying these cars are not all hardcore gear heads.

A car like this could sell for anywhere between 30k and 50k depending on condition and presentation.

[WANNA930]

a couple of weekends of OCD analness

What does that involve??LOL!

[sojahseh]

Originally Posted by COLB

Speedster is certainly correct if you are basically selling your car "as is" -- and for 90% of the cabs going on the market, you probably won't get your money out of it.

Your car may be a different case. If it is all stock -- down to the radio, wheel, etc -- and the mileage is verifiable at 35k -- it is a car that could fetch a hefty premium if you put the extra effort into getting it completely sorted.

You mentioned that the previous owner wasn't anal about it -- if a couple of weekends of OCD analness can get the car up to a really high standard, and you take the time to market it properly, it is probably worth the money to fix what is wrong.

Good point, and sort of was what I was thinking too. 8 hours of cleaning would do wonders to this thing. I haven't done much on any research, but the car seems almost totally original. I doubt they're the original tires, but they might be 35K seems like a lot to get out of a set of tires. What was the original equipment on these? Really the only things wrong with the car that I can tell so far is the top, a couple of small pieces of trim that need sorting, and a tiny ding in the front right fender that looks like it happened in the guys garage. The market for these cars varies quite a bit, and I'm not sure what a really really nice original car fetches when it's sold by just a guy (me), vs a dealer type transaction.

I've seen people asking anywhere from 35-50+, but I really don't know where to start on something like this.

Thanks for the feedback!

[speeder]

Why don't you share a couple pictures of the car and the top with us? We like pictures.

[sojahseh]

Originally Posted by speeder

Why don't you share a couple pictures of the car and the top with us? We like pictures.

Working on that. I haven't been able to get the car up to my shop to do anything to it. I haven't even washed it. It's been stuck in my garage for almost a week now.

I should have something to share late tomorrow or Thursday.

[Matt Monson]

A car like this is a candidate for preservation class showing. The ding and small tears are original. I know that a certain percentage of "repairs" and restoration are allowed for showing in preservation. But I would let the new owner make that choice.
Maybe the new owner just wants to drive it, on sunny days, and will always have the top folded. Then those little holes don't matter.

[sojahseh]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

A car like this is a candidate for preservation class showing. The ding and small tears are original. I know that a certain percentage of "repairs" and restoration are allowed for showing in preservation. But I would let the new owner make that choice.
Maybe the new owner just wants to drive it, on sunny days, and will always have the top folded. Then those little holes don't matter.

I'm with you. If I owned this car, I'd clean the crap out of it and leave the small bits of patina. I also would probably never drive it in the rain.

[COLB]

A car like this is a candidate for preservation class showing. The ding and small tears are original. I know that a certain percentage of "repairs" and restoration are allowed for showing in preservation. But I would let the new owner make that choice.
Maybe the new owner just wants to drive it, on sunny days, and will always have the top folded. Then those little holes don't matter.

An '87 is right over the cusp of "preservation class" eligibility -- which seems to be 25 years for most marques. Ironically, for PCA (according to the interwebz), low mileage is a negative for preservation class cars -- as they favor cars that have been driven. And for the serious Concours like Pebble, cars built after 1972 won't get a sniff for decades.

3.2 Carreras are on the edge of collectibility, as speeder has often stated -- in harsher terms -- but they are definitely starting to get socked away in collections.

Recognizing that the larger classic car market currently values factory authenticity over restorations to original specs, this trend is being set by low production, high dollar pre-70s cars where the vast majority of cars are either derelict, or have been restored (in a range from botched amateur to professional concours quality). A running, driving factory original car from the 1950s is exceedingly rare.

For 3.2 cars, there are a lot of modified cars, but almost no "restorations" -- they are not worth enough to justify the cost. So a high percentage are close to factory, perhaps with new paint, interior and carpet, aftermarket sound systems, etc. Still, a "survivor class" car with patina is frankly not that unusual. But low mileage, near perfect cars are.

For an 80s era car, I think condition and originality (ie, stock) is going to matter to a buyer more than original and authentic (ie, as it came from the factory).

But that is admittedly opinion, not backed by data.