So when is a deal...

So I’ve been talking to a dealer in IN since late August about an ’88 coupe they got in. It took them some time to get it ready to sell and last Friday I reached an agreement with the dealership. I asked about a deposit and he told me that he had talked to me so many times that “[my] word was good enough.” We agreed I would set up the PPI on Monday. When I called back on Monday morning, another guy at the dealership said, “We may have a problem,” because he sold the car on Saturday for $4500 more than I had agreed. I said I wasn’t going to pay that much and he said I didn’t have to, that I had to pay only $2000 more. He said they even had a call since then for the full ebay BIN price. There were no indications of any bids or offers on the ebay site.

What’s the consensus about this type of treatment? I specifically asked about a deposit and would have gladly made one, but I was assured it wasn’t necessary. I’m assuming there is no legal recourse with little legal value given to verbal agreements, but is this an ethical/proper way to do business? Or is it strictly “Money talks?”

[X JBM X]

Unfortunately for you, you're screwed. Without any kind of written agreement, there's no recourse.

I had the same thing happen to me by a private party when I was shopping... spoke to the seller of a 930 and agreed to pay his asking price pending PPI, and that I'd come and get it - he said it was all mine. Find out the next morning he sold it out from under me. The world is full of dirtbags, and he who has written agreements or comes up with cash the fastest wins.

[Nick Triesch]

Happened to me a few years ago with a clean Mini Cooper. I found the car on line called the dealer (big) and agreed to the price. It was already in the evening so I grabbed my Son and drove 70 miles to get the car. When we got to the dealer other folks were signing the papers!

[kreeshp]

This is the reality of buying (or trying to buy) an air-cooled 911 these days. Others (with more money and/or less smarts) are more than willing to pull the trigger without a PPI.

I'm not even sure if there's a lesson here. I've read of cases where a buyer has paid a deposit but the seller gladly refunds the deposit to the buyer and sells the car to someone else at an even higher price than originally agreed on with the first buyer.

Ok, I just thought of the lesson. When the deal is meant to be, it will happen. Every time I've "lost out" on a car, I've ended up with an even better one than the one I missed out on.

Consider this one that got away part of the fun of the chase. It'll make for a good story when you finally do snag the car meant for you.

Thanks, kreeshp, for the encouragement. It comes in handy right now. I've lost 2 cars like this, and had another fail a PPI. I don't believe in the "fun of the chase" at this point; I want the fun of driving the car!

[Nick Triesch]

The world of car sales has been seedy for 100 years. And it is not going to change. To me the lesson is simple, have a lot money in hand and sign papers as fast as you can if you want the car. With the current prices of air cooled cars, there may not be time for a PPI. Remember, there are a lot of people out there with a lot more money than you have. If you are not quick, they will just take it from you. I have found that any car that is in demand, most dealers will do whatever they can to get top dollar. It is in their DNA to do so.

[pc100porsche]

I've found private parties are as guilty of this as are dealers.

[Bash]

Hey hang in there. This happen to me in my quest but it lead me to a MUCH better car. The bonus, a part from a better car is the previous owner & the people who helped me,they are still part of my cars "life"

[ChristianR]

money talks

[X JBM X]

Originally Posted by pc100porsche

I've found private parties are as guilty of this as are dealers.

This. My aforementioned experience was with a private party seller, and my guess is they went with a higher bidder, even though I agreed to the asking price and they verbally committed.

[ficke]

"So when is a deal done?"
When the money has changed hands, until then it is all talk and anything can happen.
Sellers are no more ethical than buyers.

[GT3DE]

Money talks...

[cudabnu]

Just leave appropriate feedback online. Had a guy here at work go thru the same thing for a 4-runner under $10K, He arrived and the salesman even had a "SOLD TO MIKE O" on the windshield, but another couple were signing the paperwork and driving off with it by the time he got there. He made a big stink online, found who the CEO and President was online and sent them a nice email. They bent over backwards getting him a deal on another one they had to bring in out of state. Harder to do with a Porsche, but voice your dealings with them!

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by pc100porsche

I've found private parties are as guilty of this as are dealers.

I have 2 friends this happened to this week, one on a 968 beginning of the week (after the deal was agreed on, he also offered to wire the funds) and another friend just today, on a Turbo he was picking up this weekend
My father raised me with values and instilled that the most valuable thing you will ever possess is your Word, and is one of the few things you still have after you are dead & gone.

[Jay Auskin]

I've thought a little about this one. While it definitely stinks for you, I don't know if there was really anything unethical. As someone who recently sold a car (not 911), I would tell people upfront that the first person to show up with the agreed to amount of cash gets the car. If someone told me they'll take it, and we set a date within the existing week, I'll honor that. The car was a Mercedes 560SEL. So, we're only talking a $4K - $5K deal.

The fact you were setting up a PPI meant you might not buy the car, or later might ask for less than agreed to. From a seller's point of view, it doesn't appear your commitment to buy was 100%. If someone called and said they'll take it, and will bring the money I don't see the problem with what the dealer did.

When selling my car recently, I had the first person take it to a mechanic, but didn't buy. They said the mechanic thought it was in great shape, but weren't sure if they were ready. A second guy wanted to take it to his mechanic the following week. No price was agreed to. I told him upfront, and very politely, that the car is still available for others to purchase, and I'm not going to hold it. First person to pay gets it, but I will work with him on a PPI unless someone just buys it before him. A third guy and I agreed on a price, and he was going to buy it the upcoming weekend. Then, he e-mails me that he'll paid the agreed price, but I have to deliver it 100 miles. Otherwise, he'll buy it for $300 less. I declined, even though it was my highest offer. I felt he'll likely try something else right before he pays. A fourth guy haggled on price, but we finally agreed, and set a day for the transaction. The afternoon of that day, he called, asked if I would take less, and I said no. He still agreed to purchase. I told him I would be removing the plates, and asked if he arranged a ride, or needed a ride back (I knew he lived close by). He asked if I could keep the car in my driveway for 2 weeks. Again, I said no (I really didn't have the room...don't even have a garage), but he still agreed to purchase.

As far as the eBay ad goes, there is always a lot of activity "behind the scenes" that other people never see. I had a lot of e-mails and calls for offers that no one else knew about. When I ended the auction two days early (no bids, a lot of "watchers"), I had people e-mail me angry because they wanted to buy it. I explained to them they should have bid (it was a no reserve auction), as there was no way I could have known that.

I guess how I see it, buyers aren't truly committed until they pay in full and it's not a deal until then. Perhaps that's why the dealer did not take your deposit? Especially for cars selling as hot as air cooled 911s.

[Ferrariguyma]

Having been on both sides of car deals as a buyer and a seller. The one with the cash in hand wins. In the aircooled world waiting on PPI results can and probably will cost you the opportunity to own the car.

Originally Posted by Jay Auskin

I've thought a little about this one. While it definitely stinks for you, I don't know if there was really anything unethical. As someone who recently sold a car (not 911), I would tell people upfront that the first person to show up with the agreed to amount of cash gets the car. If someone told me they'll take it, and we set a date within the existing week, I'll honor that. The car was a Mercedes 560SEL. So, we're only talking a $4K - $5K deal.

The fact you were setting up a PPI meant you might not buy the car, or later might ask for less than agreed to. From a seller's point of view, it doesn't appear your commitment to buy was 100%. If someone called and said they'll take it, and will bring the money I don't see the problem with what the dealer did.

When selling my car recently, I had the first person take it to a mechanic, but didn't buy. They said the mechanic thought it was in great shape, but weren't sure if they were ready. A second guy wanted to take it to his mechanic the following week. No price was agreed to. I told him upfront, and very politely, that the car is still available for others to purchase, and I'm not going to hold it. First person to pay gets it, but I will work with him on a PPI unless someone just buys it before him. A third guy and I agreed on a price, and he was going to buy it the upcoming weekend. Then, he e-mails me that he'll paid the agreed price, but I have to deliver it 100 miles. Otherwise, he'll buy it for $300 less. I declined, even though it was my highest offer. I felt he'll likely try something else right before he pays. A fourth guy haggled on price, but we finally agreed, and set a day for the transaction. The afternoon of that day, he called, asked if I would take less, and I said no. He still agreed to purchase. I told him I would be removing the plates, and asked if he arranged a ride, or needed a ride back (I knew he lived close by). He asked if I could keep the car in my driveway for 2 weeks. Again, I said no (I really didn't have the room...don't even have a garage), but he still agreed to purchase.

As far as the eBay ad goes, there is always a lot of activity "behind the scenes" that other people never see. I had a lot of e-mails and calls for offers that no one else knew about. When I ended the auction two days early (no bids, a lot of "watchers"), I had people e-mail me angry because they wanted to buy it. I explained to them they should have bid (it was a no reserve auction), as there was no way I could have known that.

I guess how I see it, buyers aren't truly committed until they pay in full and it's not a deal until then. Perhaps that's why the dealer did not take your deposit? Especially for cars selling as hot as air cooled 911s.

[jturbo3.6]

sometimes, it's related to distance as well, I have got some cars right down street from me for great deals even other people willing to buy it for higher price while they are far away,
on the other hand, I have lost many deals even willing to pay asking price or more, for some cars hours away from me because there are people nearby went with cash right away.
for me, it's luck.
Just be ready..... when the right one comes, grab it.

[Menmojo]

Unfortunately you have no recourse.
If you would have put a deposit down on the car and agreed on a purchase price you would have had a legally binding contract. A contact has to have 3 components to be legal.
1. Offer
2. Acceptance
3. Consideration (cash exchanged)

I'm sure with time you'll find another car you like better and chalk this as a lesson learned.

Jay, I understand what you're saying and don't disagree at all. Certainly if the PPI is not good, I wouldn't have bought the car. I'm not at the point in my life--well, never been at the point in my life--where I can afford to spend $40K on a car that may not be at all what is advertised and needs a lot of time and money that I don't have. Like you said, distance is certainly a factor; I'd feel a lot more comfortable if I could see the car myself, but I was going to rely on the PPI for that. I've driven hours to look at cars that were "perfect, needs nothing," and that was nowhere near the case. Maybe I will just never be able to be a car sight-unseen. But I won't misrepresent myself as a buyer either, and I don't think it's asking that much for the chance to check out the car. If that means whoever will not honor that, I just wish they'd say so up front and not lie about a done deal with no need for a deposit even. He said he could trust me; I just didn't realize I couldn't trust him. Live and learn.

So if anybody has a white 993 or 3.2 Carrera coupe they want to sell, I'd like a chance to consider it. I hate to think I've had my last Porsche, but I did love and enjoy all 4 of them, was blessed to have them. I'm just glad not being able to buy a Porsche is my biggest problem.

[Racerbvd]

Sorry, if I give my WORD to someone who may have to travel, or based on a PPI, I honor (and have on multiple times) my word.