Euro Car Worth More Than a US Car

[spb350]

Is a Euro 86 Targa worth more then a US car just because its a euro car? Thanks

[turbo owner]

Originally Posted by spb350

Is a Euro 86 Targa worth more then a US car just because its a euro car? Thanks

US buyer might not give a premium, they will in Europe and the ROW.

[Arne2]

Depends on the buyer. Some buyers may think it more desirable due to the increase in HP. But others may think the other way due to the problems that could arise with registration or insurance that RoW cars sometime are subject to.

[CountD]

A Euro car of the standard variety is not worth more in the US or more than a US car because:

1) EPA and DOT conversions were often done by dubious shops and these conversions are of unknown quality.
2) Euro cars, if not brought in the same year of manufacture tend to be driven very hard and put away very wet compared to the US.
3) Euro cars are sometimes not even insurable by US companies because even with EPA/DOT clearance work, insurers don't want the risk involved
4) Euro cars have different parts (sometimes)

Obviously, this does not apply to a Carrera RS, a '74/'75 Euro Carrera, a Carrera 3.0, or one of the myriad Porsche specials that are in fact, special.

However, a US model '86 911 would be worth more in the US than a Euro '86 911 in the US. It used to be that the US model was worth 30% more. I don't know if that applies in this market.

I would never buy a run-of-the-mill Euro car if I could get a comparable US model car.

[TPorsche912]

I'm not sure why many of these standard cars have arrived on our shores when they could have just been purchased here to begin with.

My '82 930 was obviously a grey market car that was brought here because it couldn't be bought in the U.S. at the time. It was a very special car to have here in 1982. It was imported in '82 also, so maybe for 4 years it had a better value, but once the Turbo was again available at dealers in the U.S. that value plummeted.

The car had an obvious import label in the required location on the drivers door jamb. I tried to research the company on that label that did the Federalization and found absolutely no evidence that they ever existed. Further research on the topic proved that many of these companies existed only long enough to bring in one or two cars and then closed up and moved on. Very dubious circumstances and hard to prove 30 years later if necessary.

When I sold the car there was one interested party that absolutely refused to buy the car based on the grey market status, even though at that time the required 25 yrs had passed and the car could have been here legally and exempt anyhow. Just based on that I would say that any car that restricts the buyer pool is worth less, not more.
The other thing that would de-value the car was the amount of extra time it took to register the car. Most DMV's use a data base that immediately kicks out any strange VIN numbers, and then its up to the owner of the vehicle to prove it's legal. Even then you are sometimes held hostage by the clerk on the other side of the counter. That's a real negative to me. Certainly on a car that has no special status.

[thamlin000]

Originally Posted by TPorsche912

I'm not sure why many of these standard cars have arrived on our shores when they could have just been purchased here to begin with.

One of the groups buying these cars were soldiers. They brought many Porsches (and M-Bs, BMW, Audis, etc) back from Germany in the 70s and 80s after being stationed there. I remember the euro-spec cars were cheaper to purchase than the US-spec cars but came with the difficulties of the federalization/DOT issues. That's why my father spend a little more to get a US-spec 944, while stationed there, to avoid this. Many other soldiers bought the euro-specs.

[sm70911]

To me yes depending on condition I would pay more.
I've had both Euro and US and i prefer the faster and lighter feel of the Euro car. I prefer the higher compression / torque motor. I also prefer the cosmetics of some Euro cars, things like unique fabric interiors, small bumperettes, rear fog, the parking light. I like those little details that you often see on them. I see the Euro cars as the way Porsche originally designed the G series cars before they had to be adjusted to fit US regulations. When they added the heavy ugly US bumperettes they didn't add that to the Euro cars because it didn't improve the design.
As for the facts
My car came with complete EPA & DOT paperwork so I can't speculate on difficulties with that. I had no problem whatsoever at the DMV
Like all used cars you are buying the owner and should do your due diligence as to condition. Its just as likely that a US car can be 'driven hard and put away wet'.
I have never had a problem insuring the car
There are some different parts in the CIS in my euro car. All the parts are readily available.
As for selling when I first found my car I planned to flip it but it was such a pleasure to drive, i decided to keep it. My ad was up for one day and I had twenty five serious responses and two immediate cash offers of my ask, aswell as three European buyers two of whom were German, one of whom offered over my ask for the car.
My car was bought back in 1986 by an Air force Colonel who flew the car home in a US Transport Aircraft. He also kept incredibly detailed and fastidious records.

Ultimately its what you prefer and are willing to pay for. There is often a lot of nonsense and fear based on some old redundant stories. If you search on tech there are lots of threads detailing many aspects of ROW vs US. With any used 911 the history that's available with the car is the key to making an informed purchase. My 2c as a Euro owner : Drive a Euro car and drive a US car and see if you prefer the feel of one over the other.

[mobius911]

Originally Posted by CountD

A Euro car of the standard variety is not worth more in the US or more than a US car because:

1) EPA and DOT conversions were often done by dubious shops and these conversions are of unknown quality.
2) Euro cars, if not brought in the same year of manufacture tend to be driven very hard and put away very wet compared to the US.
3) Euro cars are sometimes not even insurable by US companies because even with EPA/DOT clearance work, insurers don't want the risk involved
4) Euro cars have different parts (sometimes)

Obviously, this does not apply to a Carrera RS, a '74/'75 Euro Carrera, a Carrera 3.0, or one of the myriad Porsche specials that are in fact, special.

However, a US model '86 911 would be worth more in the US than a Euro '86 911 in the US. It used to be that the US model was worth 30% more. I don't know if that applies in this market.

I would never buy a run-of-the-mill Euro car if I could get a comparable US model car.

Those 4 points are the arguments that the U.S. dealers for Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW used to convince Congress to clamp down on grey market imports. Their arguments (correct or not) are still resonating 30 years later, so I guess they did a good sales job! The imports peaked at 66,000 in 1985, and had trickled to a fraction of that within a few years. By 1995 only 300 cars were imported.

One important difference in the 80's was that cars at least 5 years old were candidates for a "one-time exemption" from EPA compliance. I brought over a car that met this and received the EPA exemption letter. The separate DOT report was a multi-page form that I filled out myself; no conversion shop needed. I believe the conversion shop certification was only a requirement for newer cars that did not qualify for the EPA exemption and needed US emissions equipment.

I did undo all of the changes I made to my car for the DOT report. I'll certainly disclose everything to a potential buyer if I ever sell. Whether the fact that the car does not meet US standards from 1973 is a positive or a negative will be up to each potential buyer. There are clearly people in both camps.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by mobius911

Those 4 points are the arguments that the U.S. dealers for Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW used to convince Congress to clamp down on grey market imports. Their arguments (correct or not) are still resonating 30 years later, so I guess they did a good sales job! The imports peaked at 66,000 in 1985, and had trickled to a fraction of that within a few years. By 1995 only 300 cars were imported.

.

Sir, it was no sales job.

My main point was/is, that I have seen at least 10 Ferraris, not to mention many more Porsches with such shoddy conversion work (broom handles in the doors for side impact, bumpers that had sheet metal as strengthening attached with RTV silicone, one Ferrari Testarossa with a sawed rear cross-member, catalytic converters welded on at the head, air pumps that were added that actually pumped air into the crankcase, marker lights hacked into factory wiring with straight gauge wire, air bags that were put in that were full of crumpled newspaper) and many many more that were severe safety hazards, so really I'm not paranoid, nuts, or brainwashed by Congress so no sales job. There really was no conspiracy by BMW, Mercedes or Porsche as to stopping it - although Ferrari tried much, much harder especially well into the 2000's.

On the contrary, out of 100s of converted cars I personally inspected not more than 10% ever had correct work done to them.

By 1995 that many were imported because it wasn't cheaper to get them in Europe. Our dollar at that time tanked. And in 1995 Europe had cars that were much closer to complying with our rules and specs than lets say, a 1980 Ferrari BB512. In the '80s you could buy a European import at substantial savings and bring it over and even make a dollar or two (most unfortunately the shady way). So I don't know what you are representing with your numbers and what exactly you mean.

Unfortunately most 'Euro' cars from the '80s were brought in under less than honorable intentions and conditions. There are some Ferrari 308s out there (I know of 7) that share the same VIN number. That's the kind of shenanigans that were going on and gray market in the '80s was the Wild West.

Believe it or not, believe it if you want to or if you don't, US cars are the safer alternative in a mass-produced car as at least you know what you are getting.

[ficke]

Originally Posted by spb350

Is a Euro 86 Targa worth more then a US car just because its a euro car? Thanks

No.

[spb350]

Lots of opinions I guess its in the eye of the beholder?

[sm70911]

Massive generalizations about 'most' European Porsche's, and for some reason other marques aside, I firmly believe its about buying the condition and the available history of the car in question. After almost thirty years if the car has shoddy wiring that was done in 1986 I suspect that would have shown up by this point, provided the car was being used. Personally any 'low mileage' car that I would consider buying would come in for even more exacting scrutiny than a regularly driven high mile car.

What was done to federalize varies from state to state and year to year so it is practically impossible for there to be a true consensus. Again it comes down to paper history which shows the facts.

For the real difference I'd suggest trying to find a Euro car and a US car that are close to one another in condition. Drive both and see if you prefer one over another. Having built a US 3.2 into a Euro Spec 3.2 and currently driving a original Euro spec 3.0 I believe there is a notable difference in performance.

[techweenie]

I agree with Jeff.

In the 80s, European/ROW 911s had more horsepower than US versions, so generally, the Euro versions are preferable. Fortunately the old dealer/importer scare tactics are bouncing around 30 years later, so market prices in the US are roughly the same.

One difference with the Euro/ROW versions of these cars is that they sometimes have manual windows and lack a/c and sunroofs - things the North American importer established as baseline equipment. You can also find some "interesting" color combos on Euro/ROW cars.

[ROW911SC]

Originally Posted by sm70911

To me yes depending on condition I would pay more.
I've had both Euro and US and i prefer the faster and lighter feel of the Euro car. I prefer the higher compression / torque motor. I also prefer the cosmetics of some Euro cars, things like unique fabric interiors, small bumperettes, rear fog, the parking light. I like those little details that you often see on them. I see the Euro cars as the way Porsche originally designed the G series cars before they had to be adjusted to fit US regulations. When they added the heavy ugly US bumperettes they didn't add that to the Euro cars because it didn't improve the design.
As for the facts
My car came with complete EPA & DOT paperwork so I can't speculate on difficulties with that. I had no problem whatsoever at the DMV
Like all used cars you are buying the owner and should do your due diligence as to condition. Its just as likely that a US car can be 'driven hard and put away wet'.
I have never had a problem insuring the car
There are some different parts in the CIS in my euro car. All the parts are readily available.
As for selling when I first found my car I planned to flip it but it was such a pleasure to drive, i decided to keep it. My ad was up for one day and I had twenty five serious responses and two immediate cash offers of my ask, aswell as three European buyers two of whom were German, one of whom offered over my ask for the car.
My car was bought back in 1986 by an Air force Colonel who flew the car home in a US Transport Aircraft. He also kept incredibly detailed and fastidious records.

Ultimately its what you prefer and are willing to pay for. There is often a lot of nonsense and fear based on some old redundant stories. If you search on tech there are lots of threads detailing many aspects of ROW vs US. With any used 911 the history that's available with the car is the key to making an informed purchase. My 2c as a Euro owner : Drive a Euro car and drive a US car and see if you prefer the feel of one over the other.

+1

Have registered/insured my '81 SC in NJ for the last 30 years without issue...

[ficke]

The thing is, on average, most people do not pay extra for ROW cars. Some even count it as a minus, but equally some think it is a plus. But when you sell a car it does not factor in that much, condition being the most important by far. Then mods, mileage, records, ROW, etc.
So to answer your question, No, a Euro targa is not worth more just because it is a Euro, maybe to some but it is a minus to others. It is just not a big issue anymore one way or the other.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by sm70911

What was done to federalize varies from state to state and year to year so it is practically impossible for there to be a true consensus. Again it comes down to paper history which shows the facts.

.

Yea, no. Things that were done to Federalize an automobile in the 1980's and most of the 1990's never varied from state-to-state with one exception: California (hence the term Federalization). As you suggest, if there were different EPA and DOT requirements from state-to-state no automobile manufacturer would ever make money as to custom tailor a car for each state.

I don't know where you got the above from, and I do believe that it is possible for a general consenus: that being, with two identical cars, in both the same condition, the same year and the same color, you would be wiser to choose the US car over the Euro for myriad reasons, and forget about the supposed 20 hp gain. Not to mention that you will probably never have an issue with registration or insurance. I have seen many Euro cars leave California because CA wouldn't put up with shoddy paperwork, incomplete conversions, and half-assed attempts to make them legal - even 25 years later.

[Josh D]

My car was federalized for lighting and crash, but not for epa (no emissions equipment added). I've since returned the lighting and the rear bumperettes back to Euro spec.

I have had no problems with parts, registration, or insurance.

I have no intentions to ever move to California.

[ROW911SC]

The only issue I ever had with my ROW was right after I bought it: took the car to my local Porsche dealer for an oil change and they refused to service it.

[ficke]

Contrary to popular belief of many people who live in California, It is in fact not the center of the universe.
ROW is a non issue in most states to register a car if it is older than 25 years.
Most people will in fact chose more HP. and performance in two cars that are in identical condition that are over 25 years of age.

[Matt Monson]

Condition. Condition. Condition. It's a 30 year old car. I don't care where it started life. I care about what sort of condition it is in today when I am considering buying. Nothing more.