How do I buy a car?
 

Hi folks. This is a sincere post. My last P car purchase was an impulse decision. As a result, I over paid for a car that's not exactly what I want. So this time, I want to do things the right way. I've done a lot of research, and I've found a car on auction I like. My specific questions are these:

I want a PPi. What's the protocol to get one on a car that's on auction? Do I get the imspection before I even bid? Can I buy the car subject to a clean PPi? And what is a clean ppi? I guess this process is negotiable, but I would like to know what's a reasonable request and what's not.

How do I determine a fair price? I've been on Haberty's site. It looks to me like the site makes no allowance for mileage, options, recent major work, etc. How do I account for these things? Also, it looks like most dealer sales are leading the market prices, sometimes by a lot. I would think that most of the cars you see are no better than a 2 condition, and if it has been driven a 100,000 miles, it's hard for me to believe the car is better than a 3. Am I thinking about this the right way?

What am I missing? Any thoughts, or suggestions are much appreciated.

Steve Yeatts
Chapel Hill, NC

Most cars you are seeing for sale are condition 3 & 4. There are very few true 2s out there. The 2s are way higher in ask than the average you see out there.

You say auction, do you mean EBay? Many on EBay define their own PPI rules in their listings. Everything is negotiable though. You just have to ask. Start a dialogue with the seller. Frequently a deal is struck before auction close.

I would work and buy somewhat locally. Nothing better then seeing and driving the car, getting a a PPI where you can meet the mechanic and then making a deal. There are quite unscrupulous sellers out there that will lie, cheat and steal. Many on eBay. Be very careful.

Coming from someone who hasn't managed to buy a car yet in almost 10 months:

If it's on Ebay, you can try contacting the seller and work out an off-ebay deal subject to PPI. Meaning for example, I've seen the car and taken a close look, it looks to me a car worth $X but if it turns out rusty or welded where it shouldn't be I'm off the bid, and if it needs any major day 0 maintenance it comes off the price. Like JC says, much easier if you can walk to the car in person.

If it's a real auction like Bonham I think that's a whole different ballgame, not sure how it works but I don't think you can take the car off the lot to be inspected.

The price is more of an art than a science. All these cars had a big run up in price over the past couple of years, and now you see a lot of delusional sellers who have a 3 and a half on their hands but want top dollars regardless. At least with SCs that seems to happen a lot.

I wouldn't spend too much time looking at hagerty prices for the reasons you said. This site plus Rennlist and to some extent ebay are more indicative of the asking prices. Then obviously asking and getting are two different things, as always.

If you can be more specific on the model that you're looking at, or even better the specific car, you can get some decent feedback right here I think.

1) Do not think any one car defines your pursuit. Many times I have fallen in love just to find just as nice a car the next day. The key to your long term ownership is finding the car you will be comfortable with while checking off all your boxes. This is not one car, this is multiple cars. Yes, you have found one car at the auction. It is not the only car. Develop options. Patience is critical. PS I do not like auctions.

2) PPI. If this is a non-negotiable requirement you need to stick with it. I have NEVER bought a car with a PPI. I am mechanically astute so I am normally confident with my down side risk. To me the importance comes in the ownership trail and upkeep paperwork. Have I been burned? No.....

3) Fair price is something you do not determine. The market does. You have done your homework so you should be prepared. Excellence, PCA, Pelican, EBay all provide the pulse of the market. Given today's market do not expect an owner to sell low. Be prepared to pay. I do think there is a seasonal pattern in price and we are entering the period. Bring back your questions; there are some very astute hobbyist as well as traders that hang here and would love to help you.

4) It appears nothing, if in fact you have done your homework. Key is patience you will get your car.

Mr. Macroni has hit the nail on the head...with one exception.

Get a qualified Porsche specialist to do a PPI, unless you are mechanically astute, like he is. Of course a beautiful trail of paperwork goes a long way to diminishing the need, but it also usually raises the price. Both paper trail and a PPI is ideal. If you haven't been under, around and through these cars, you need someone who has to take a look.

It will pay off it peace of mind alone, if you get the right shop to do it.

I hear you Nick..... and agree if it will check off a box for the buyer he needs to complete.

My experience is that PPIs can be very uneven. A friend of mine purchased a car that was inspected by a shop that most of us on this board would considered not only competent but even acclaimed. Within the first year he had to deal with two critical issues; one in the motor and the second with a rusted front pan. IMO both should have been picked up but to the shop that did the PPI they were considered minor and not even noted of consequence.

Now with that being said I know of another shop with a level of detail that would analyze the gas from the tank for imperfections, find rust hidden under the sound pad in the engine bay, review the age of the fuse in the fuse panel.....As I said Uneven....

Again, the ownership trail is the critical determinant for me.....

^^^Sound advice.

I have bought and sold hundreds of cars though auctions (eBay, and live collector auctions). when selling I prefer that the bidders arrange the PPI before the auction ends (in most cases that usually leads to a deal before the auction ends).

When it comes to buying I like to see service records, Ill have more faith in a higher milage car with service records, then I would a car with less miles and no service records. PPI is a good idea, but it will only tell you the current state of the car, dont assume a good PPI will mean that the car will be trouble free.

This is so true. Emotions run high in these things, and you think that the car you have your eyes on is 'the one.' As they say, there are a lot more fish in the sea - or a lot more old 911s in the world.

Thanks for all the insights. I appreciate them. The cars I'm interested in are the G50 coupes. I'm not looking for a concourse level car but I want it to be a very clean, sound driver with everything operating as it should. Within this group of cars, what things influence value the most? Mileage? Recent major component rebuilds? New paint? What should such a car with ~100,000 miles and no upgrades, rebuilds, or paint command? Is 100,000 miles a lot? What's the life expectancy of a 3.2 liter and a G50 tranny? What is the cost to rebuild these major components? Thanks!

Steve Yeatts

As it happens, a car that fits your spec just sold on Bring a Trailer: 1988 Porsche 911 Carrera G50 Coupe | Bring a Trailer

'88 Coupe, black-black, 103K miles, records, sold for $34,350. There may be a slight premium attached to BaT cars but this one is consistent with the current market. This is a real sale number, too - not a hinky ebay shill bid number.

To answer some of your questions - yes, mileage is a factor with a high premium attached to cars under 40K miles and slight discount for those over 130K. At this point 100K miles is not a lot, the youngest of the 3.2s with that mileage will have averaged only ~3,800 miles a year from new. Many have done a lot more. Original paint and completely stock appearance is prized over mods and new paint.

Cheers

d.

Danke sehr Dienstuhr! Sehr informativ.

Steve

Steve

These are my opinions ….

G50 Cars 1987 through 1989: extremely dependable cars to the point of being considered a bit vanilla. They were part of a strong production run so there should be a healthy supply. My view for this model is if you are open to color you will find a nice guards red, white or black car. I have owned two; one was a black coupe the other a guards red cab.

A porsche acquaintance just sold a 80,000 mile Guards red coupe for $40,000ish. The car was a very nice driver level car. I would say this is a great bar to set for private party value. The values move up and down from this point based upon countless criteria such as performance packages, spoilers, wheels and editions. IMO, these cars excluding the Turbo-Look cars were all pretty much mechanically similar, most optioned within a small range of variability.

Greatest influence in value to me is originality. Any car that is under 100,000 miles that needs or needed a major component rebuild or was painted should not be the car for you. These cars are tanks and if you properly maintain them it is almost impossible to tell the difference between a 164,000 mile car and a 64,000 mile car.

With that being said there are exceptions to every rule. Another knowledgable Porsche bud recently bought an 87 white coupe that was rebuilt front to back. He purchased the car with receipts of over $57,000. I believe he paid high $Twenties for the car. He is happy, I would have avoided the car due to the level of repair that was required.

I have never rebuilt either a 3.2 or G50 I believe repaired motors complete by skilled craftsman are $8,000 top end, $12,000 bottom and G50 Transmission: $5,000. These estimates are conservative. There are others (Techweenie, Trader, MadMax & Matt to name a few) who could give more exacting figures.

Steve,

For many years the maxim for buying a used P-car was, "Buy the newest you can afford". Using that maxim, I bought the newest (and last available year) 911, an '89. Nothing available after that is a 911, just check the serial number. That said, the G50 cars seem to be languishing in price, not just against the earlier 911, but to the 'mid-year' cars too. Don't be discouraged; keep up the hunt.

I bought my car, a multiple concours winning <20K car, off craig's list. You may have to get up close and personal with a lot of pigs, but your car is there. (FWIW, I would have 'settled for' a 964, but couldn't find one as good as the 911 I bought.)

When did you buy your car?

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If you can buy a coupe comparable to the BAT black coupe -- at around $35k, you are doing well.

It was a bargain at that price.