87 cabrio for sale here - heads up

[Christien]

After much deliberating, I feel I need to post this here. I had a PPI done (full inspection including compression and leakdown, $325) on the black over tan 87 cabrio for sale in Florida posted here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/890713-1987-porsche-911-carrera-cabriolet-air-cooled-g50.html which turned up a number of issues not disclosed in the ad - inoperable convertible top, bad paint work on the passenger door, a small oil leak at the pulley, vinyl (rather than leather) seats and, most importantly, 70% leakage on cylinder #6. It's been pointed out that I didn't pursue the ppi any further so as to get more details on the leakage - it could be something as simple and cheap as a stuck piece of carbon that a good hard drive will fix. It could also require a full top-end rebuild. I don't know. Now, the seller certainly couldn't have known about the engine problem, but he would've known about the other things, plus several other minor issues one would normally expect in a 30 year old car.

The seller doesn't strike me at all as a scammer, but this is really important info that he's now aware of, and still choosing not to disclose. After an email suggesting he update the for-sale ad now that he's aware of the problems went unanswered, I feel it should be made known publicly, in the interest of keeping the Pelican classifieds on a level higher than that of auto trader or ebay. I've been a contributing member here for over a decade and really appreciate the level of discourse here (aside from PARF ), and I'd like to see it stay that way. And to prove I've put my money where my mouth is, here are 2 previous FS ads I've posted here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/402767-fs-1983-944-a.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/528864-fs-1972-911t-w-extra-engine.html

I should also state that the seller thinks the shop is just "hungry for service work". He said when he had an inspection done when he bought the car a year ago all 6 cylinders checked out fine, and he's only driven it a few hundred miles since then. He didn't provide compression/leakdown #s, or anything beyond that statement. I left it at that because I'm no longer interested in the car.

Caveat emptor.

[brainzito]

I was actually going to see that car this weekend, spoke to the owner (Patrick) and a set up a PPI with Vortex. You mind sharing who did your PPI? thanks

[Christien]

I wouldn't waste your money on another PPI if I were you. I had a PPI done at European Performance in St. Pete's, based on recommendations from people here on Pelican. Here's what they found. Admittedly some of it is nitpicky, and there's a question as to whether the leakdown test was complete, but certainly there was enough to make me run far away. Certainly the car is not at all as described in the ad.

Compression/leakdown test showed 145-150 psi on 1-5, 4-5% leakage, 125 psi/70% leakage on #6
cabrio power top is inoperable - roof motors/transmission need to be replaced
Seats are vinyl, not leather
new convertible top and headliner needed
crack in centre of dash
needs a new fan housing (cracked)
something wrong with brakes, possible caliper needs rebuilding, needs hoses
front cooler hoses have slight weeping
oil leak at pulley shaft
lower valve cover seal leaking
needs new ignition wires (badly cracked)
paint blisters on front bumper
R door has a poor repaint 3-4/10 quality
ding in driver's door
needs new shifter bushings
needs new drive belts
roof light stuck on
headlights foggy
battery tie down missing
alarm is flaky, should be removed
gas cap paint faded
oil lines to/from t-stat bad
a lot of body rake - rear is set too high
RF wheel well pulled out a bit
tires are mismatched, cheap tires, decent life left
hood safety catch is broken
windshield rubber bad, could leak
driver's mirror doesn't move to the left
driver's mirror glass coming loose
needs high beam switch

Long discussion here if you want to read it: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/892651-about-sale-ads-disclosure-integrity.html

TLDR: my opinion is seller is dishonest, car is very sub-par, worth low to mid 20s.

[pmax]

The seller dropped the price.

You're not going to find another G50 black/tan/cabrio easily.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by pmax

The seller dropped the price.

You're not going to find another G50 black/tan/cabrio easily.

Maybe, but the car has a lot of needs. Even if the price is in the mid-20s, the potential downside is pretty big.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Christien

I wouldn't waste your money on another PPI if I were you. .....(edited out car trashing)

Really? It would be interesting to get another leakdown with FULL PROPER results.

Car is likely a great driver, OP wanted to make it a showcar for cheap money. If this was near me I'd be looking at it.

Christien, you do realize you could buy the 'perfect' car, pass all PPI, and have it throw a rod driving home? No warranty on used, and most of these points are nothing for a driver.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by pmax

The seller dropped the price.

You're not going to find another G50 black/tan/cabrio easily.

Uhh, yes I am. Hopefully moving to a PPI on another one near Milwaukee next week, found 3 or 4 others as well (though not as promising).

Originally Posted by dad911

Really? It would be interesting to get another leakdown with FULL PROPER results.

Car is likely a great driver, OP wanted to make it a showcar for cheap money. If this was near me I'd be looking at it.

Christien, you do realize you could buy the 'perfect' car, pass all PPI, and have it throw a rod driving home? No warranty on used, and most of these points are nothing for a driver.

Yep, well aware of that, I've had similar things happen. And I didn't want to make it a showcar, I wanted to bring it up to the level the seller was representing it at. Showcar would involve bare metal respray, all new interior, correct wheels and tires. That's $15k on top of the PPI right there, minimum. Let's skip the hyperbole, there was enough of that in the other thread.

edit: but I do agree that a leakdown with all the questions answered would help. But rather than spend the money on a separate PPI, just call European Performance and ask them - they might know and I might have just not written it down when I talked to him on the phone.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Maybe, but the car has a lot of needs. Even if the price is in the mid-20s, the potential downside is pretty big.

I'm not sure about that - mid 20s you could put 15 into it and bring it up to driver quality and be where you should be price-wise. That was my intention, but the seller didn't want to negotiate in that range.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by Christien

I feel it should be made known publicly, in the interest of keeping the Pelican classifieds on a level higher than that of auto trader or ebay. I've been a contributing member here for over a decade and really appreciate the level of discourse here (aside from PARF ), and I'd like to see it stay that way.

Right on and amen to this one. Good job and I total stand behind you and it does take guts to put it out there even when you know the truth, or should I say even paid for the truth. But some people don't want to know the truth or would rather find their own truth at their own expense.

[Christien]

Thanks!

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Christien

I'm not sure about that - mid 20s you could put 15 into it and bring it up to driver quality and be where you should be price-wise. That was my intention, but the seller didn't want to negotiate in that range.

I was thinking about the compression issue. That alone eats half of the budget if it's just something to do with the head. If you're into rings, well, maybe more than half, right?

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Christien

...
Long discussion here if you want to read it: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/892651-about-sale-ads-disclosure-integrity.html

TLDR: my opinion is seller is dishonest, car is very sub-par, worth low to mid 20s.

I read thru the thread.

So the PPI does an incomplete job on the leakdown, doesn't look like it included a test drive but finds a laundry list of nits. Based on that, you demanded a $15K discount and the seller rejected your offer.

Other than the leakdown question, the car is already driver quality now. The interior looks good, better than driver quality. Take those newish vinyl seats that you didn't like, they can cost a bundle if you have them reupholstered at a shop. The paint looks fine from the pics. Rust free, pretty good for a FL car. The wheels look great.

If the car doesn't need the rebuild, asking for a $15K discount for the other issues is not reasonable and perhaps the seller reacted badly to you. And now you are making an outright claim the seller is dishonest even after others have advised you of the PPI flaws in that thread. I think it's time to move on.

[Christien]

"If" should never enter the equation when making an offer on a car that might need a rebuild - if it's not known for sure, the offer should be made assuming it's required. To do otherwise is just foolish. Stating "paint looks fine from the pics" indicates a lack of discrimination in reading for-sale ads, IMO.

I stated my case very clearly in that thread. I stand by that and don't feel the need to continue re-stating it. I have moved on, it's other people that keep dragging this out. My position hasn't changed - the car is misrepresented in the ad. That's not opinion, it's black and white fact.

[CountD]

Originally Posted by Christien

I stated my case very clearly in that thread. I stand by that and don't feel the need to continue re-stating it. I have moved on, it's other people that keep dragging this out. My position hasn't changed - the car is misrepresented in the ad. That's not opinion, it's black and white fact.

Another right on to this one. If you show up and the car is no where near as represented, there's no harm done with offering what you think it's worth. To throw Christien under the Porsche bus for informing the public as a whole and to drag it out is pretty ridiculous. Strangely he's done what everyone always *****es about around here and that's being honest about cars and calling out sellers on what's not.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Christien

"If" should never enter the equation when making an offer on a car that might need a rebuild - if it's not known for sure, the offer should be made assuming it's required. To do otherwise is just foolish. Stating "paint looks fine from the pics" indicates a lack of discrimination in reading for-sale ads, IMO.

I stated my case very clearly in that thread. I stand by that and don't feel the need to continue re-stating it. I have moved on, it's other people that keep dragging this out. My position hasn't changed - the car is misrepresented in the ad. That's not opinion, it's black and white fact.

Good ! But threads have a life of their own.... it might just come back alive if the seller finds this
or the one in RL for that matter.

Next time, I say simply report the findings and leave the character bashing out.

Most of us are capable of making our own moral judgements of character (in private).

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by pmax

Good ! But threads have a life of their own.... it might just come back alive if the seller finds this
or the one in RL for that matter.

Next time, I say simply report the findings and leave the character bashing out.

Most of us are capable of making our own judgements (in private).

Hmmm, that's not what you said in your last criticism. Maybe you should have been more clear?

[Christien]

Originally Posted by pmax

! But threads have a life of their own.... it might just come
or the one in RL for that matter.

Which thread on rennlist?

[Christien]

Never mind, I found it. Didn't even know about that one!

[euro1984]

Originally Posted by pmax

I read thru the thread.

So the PPI does an incomplete job on the leakdown, doesn't look like it included a test drive but finds a laundry list of nits. Based on that, you demanded a $15K discount and the seller rejected your offer.

Other than the leakdown question, the car is already driver quality now. The interior looks good, better than driver quality. Take those newish vinyl seats that you didn't like, they can cost a bundle if you have them reupholstered at a shop. The paint looks fine from the pics. Rust free, pretty good for a FL car. The wheels look great.

If the car doesn't need the rebuild, asking for a $15K discount for the other issues is not reasonable and perhaps the seller reacted badly to you. And now you are making an outright claim the seller is dishonest even after others have advised you of the PPI flaws in that thread. I think it's time to move on.

I tend to agree with this. The PPI seems over the top and looks like a shop looking for work. Many of these items are normal on any old 911 even the ones going for 50k.

Car looks like a good car other than the potential (unproven) compression issue. I don't think its fair to the seller to disparage him this much. You haven't even seen the car in the flesh have you?

If I were the seller I would think you were just looking to get as many things on a PPI as possible to beat down the price. It doesn't look to me like the seller is trying to rip anyone off.

[Ronnie's.930]

70% cylinder leakage is a huge number - I wonder if the report stated where the leakage was coming from, considering that is fairly easy to observe while doing the test. Regardless, if the number is accurate, that is an engine which needs a top end overhaul before it is further used.