Question about Porsche 911 prices.

[Nick Triesch]

I just got off the Hemmings classic car site and I notice that 356 cars can have the wrong engine or a ton of miles and still command $75,000 to $400,000! Many of the ads say things like "25 miles since full restoration". Many times the real mileage is never given. So this brings me to the 911 SC and 3.2 cars. Many times on this forum folks say that if a car has 100,000 or more it really hurts the value. Say a 911 has 300,000 miles but has been completely restored with new everything, does the mileage still hurt the price at selling time. I just wonder why the 356 is exempt from this? I'm not being rude, I just want to know from the experts.

[Rick Brooklyn]

My two cents, the 356 is a different type of car, you might call it a "collectible classic".

99% of SCs and 3.2s are cars for the common enthusiast. "completely restoring" an SC can be a worthwhile endeavor if it's your car and you want to make it nice because you like it like that, but I think it's unlikely to be a money winning proposition, especially if you want to do it right and not cut corners.

The few people who like perfection and everything period correct will look for a low mileage time car, and the people who're ok with 300k miles don't care much about full restorations.

[Nick Triesch]

I hear what you are saying but I remember 20 years ago the 356 was just another Porsche. Still, the 356 gets a pass for engine swaps and high mileage. They can even have an engine from a much newer 356 and sell for thousands. I bet the 63 split window corvette is in the same boat. What I have learned is never say never with an old air cooled Porsche. I think they get the mileage pass is because people drove these cars and a car that is between 66 years and 51 years old has high miles. No matter what.

[mattC2993]

Mileage is less important on older cars. The current condition is more important. Non-matching numbers does reduce the value. Some say 10% or more but its hard to know exactly.

[Matt Monson]

They are older and more rare. But they still have a split. They will always take a discount over the perfect numbers matching car.

Just sold my 67 912. Dealer who bought didn't even ask for the mileage or whether it was accurate. Mileage was unknown and odometer had been zero'd shortly before I bought it.

My recently acquired 74 is the full trifecta+1. It is true mileage unknown. It has a 3.2 engine swap in it. And it carries a theft recovery salvage title. The +1 is it was skinned as a 935 when I bought. Now it looks like a stock 74 Carrera in original color.

I couldn't get anything close to a matching car with records money. But it will continue to increase in value with the rest of them. Just not as fast and never as high.

Sometimes the car has a clean story. We've changed many 356 engines to 912 hearts because the original was broken beyond repair. Sometimes it was just cheaper to take the nice engine out of a 912 wreck than it was to rebuild the 356 one. These things were done when values were low. But if the car has survived the following decade or two in good condition damn right its worth some money.

The SC and 3.2 buyers turning up their noses at cars with mileage or non-matching issues are really looking at the car in investment terms. Its an approach that doesn't ring true to me as a car guy. Sure, if you have the money for a nice numbers matching no accidents car but one. But if you find a nice car with old issues that were fixed, why not consider it at a discount? You can't ever find out the real mileage. You usually can't find the original engine again. But if the car stands up on its own and you are buying it to drive and enjoy, consider it for what it is. Pay accordingly, but obviously I am one who sees their value. I bought one.

[jturbo3.6]

Also anything newer than 1981 you can check carfax for mileage.
I don't think it apply to 356. So unless it's all records prove the miles.
Mileage just a number on the dash.

[mattC2993]

Maybe I will be able to afford an 356 Roadster or Cab soon then

[ficke]

Mileage is really important to a "used" car buyer, condition is what is important to a collectable car buyer.
I do not know if it is how old a car is but more the mindset of the buyer that distinguish between the two.
For instance when I sold my mostly original 1916 Model T Ford touring car a few years ago I had a few people ask what the mileage was? Really? what do they think they are buying? just a used Ford car? They should be looking for and asking about rust , original parts, body work, etc.

People who buy used cars because they cannot afford new ones ask about mileage.

[gshiwota]

It's probably been 35 years since 356 were just "another Porsche". I think in about 10 years our 911s will be in the same league as 356s. Mileage won't matter as much as condition unless it's a concours time capsule car which will always fetch top dollar. This will start with a run up in prices (check) and the high volume of restorations of these cars (it's starting).

Hold onto your 911s....

[NYNick]

Matt hit the nail on the head...it's the rarity of the 356's that brings them their value. It's also the 'cool' factor. Both contribute to high values. Guys are willing to overlook originality and mileage as a result.

Some of us look for value, some cool factor, some drivability, some investment return, some all of the above. I originally fell in love with these cars because of the drivability and cool factor. It is only the last few years that I've considered value and investment return as well, but it's the drivability that keeps me coming back.

Only a fool buys an old 356/911 regardless of price. With the air cooled market what it is these days, you have to buy smart. Either way, buy to drive, not for the ROI. If the ROI happens to come your way, so much the better.

[brisboats]

Hard to compare 356's to later 911's. A 356 cab brings more than a coupe. A 356 appeals to an older buyer from a different demographic.
The 356's were built in much lower numbers. Many rusted away beyond recognition and were subsequently crushed. They really were pretty cheap just 20 some years ago and got treated as such. Likewise they got driven accumulated many a mile, many an owner and many an engine change. The true collector 356's with documented low miles and in an original state would be very hard to find outside of the rare cars.

In 1988 I bought a nice 356 C coupe for $3500 in driver condition spent another 5-6k on cosmetics and paint. Less than a year later I felt like Trump because I sold it for 16000. At the time I was working for Porsche and the "experts" advised that that was a top of the market price. It probably was as we entered the Gulf War and the Ferrari crisis. 356 prices did decrease for awhile afterward.

I have always thought that people make a rookie mistake when they track the history of 356 prices and apply the same logic to a later 911 from the impact bumper era. The graph would be more appropriately applied to the early 912's as more of them were sold to the purists that scoffed when Porsche unveiled the 911 with gasp a 6 cylinder power plant. It wasn't just the price point alone explaining why the 912 outsold 911's initially it was a resistance of the purist embracing the change, much like the air cooled to water cooled crossover.

Just my opinion, not clairvoyance.

B

[Nick Triesch]

Very interesting! But there is still some Porsche hypocrisy here. For instance 1965 to 1973.5 cars were made in much smaller numbers that later 911's. They command huge prices and low mileage and correct and motor is still very important. I read it all the time. After looking at many 356 cars for sale , I can find say a 1956 356 with a much later 1600 motor. And it seems to be a plus! But it does lower the price down to $300,000!!!! In other words, I don't see a difference in price with a 356 with a different motor and high or unknown miles to a car with everything correct.

[93097004xx]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

Very interesting! But there is still some Porsche hypocrisy here. For instance 1965 to 1973.5 cars were made in much smaller numbers that later 911's. They command huge prices and low mileage and correct and motor is still very important. I read it all the time. After looking at many 356 cars for sale , I can find say a 1956 356 with a much later 1600 motor. And it seems to be a plus! But it does lower the price down to $300,000!!!! In other words, I don't see a difference in price with a 356 with a different motor and high or unknown miles to a car with everything correct.

This is incorrect they made 80,000 long hood 911s.


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[ficke]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

But it does lower the price down to $300,000!!!! In other words, I don't see a difference in price with a 356 with a different motor and high or unknown miles to a car with everything correct.

If it lowers the price down to $300,000 then is that not a difference in price?
You sound hypocritical which is ironic since you write about hypocrisy

[jeffbottman]

Someday, probably sooner than you wish, all cars on the road will be electric and will drive themselves in autonomous swarms. Our gas cars will be illegal on the roads.

It's quite possible that the long-anticipated blow-up in later 911 prices will never have a chance to happen due to this regrettable situation.

But then I'm a pessimist by nature.

[voitureltd]

^^^^^^^
Well then time soon to consider a modded car for track use, or get the parts on hand, if you just don't want to look at it? They seem at a discount now.

[Nick Triesch]

Ficke, you know what I mean. And it still does not matter if a 356 has the correct motor or high mileage. I just think it is interesting that a 993 with 150,000 miles is a ton yet a 356 with 200,000 or unknown miles does not matter. Also, in 1988 the v356 was just another Porsche That is when I bought mine from the San Diego autotrader and there was a bunch to choose from $8000.

[brisboats]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

Very interesting! But there is still some Porsche hypocrisy here. For instance 1965 to 1973.5 cars were made in much smaller numbers that later 911's. They command huge prices and low mileage and correct and motor is still very important. I read it all the time. After looking at many 356 cars for sale , I can find say a 1956 356 with a much later 1600 motor. And it seems to be a plus! But it does lower the price down to $300,000!!!! In other words, I don't see a difference in price with a 356 with a different motor and high or unknown miles to a car with everything correct.

So asking a question which you think you already believe know the answer should be limited to cross examination. You solicited opinions here and now you have them, no need to be argumentative. I think you are exaggerating a non matching 356 motor car to 300K .
As an aside you started this thread with a reference to impact bumper cars and now have switched direction... to the swb and later long hoods why? And well , yes I already know the answer. .

B

[touringteg]

I actually to came on to post about a high mileage 88 Carrera that a local dealer is selling. Nearing 300,000 miles and thoroughly enjoyed. It will still be worth money. It will be interesting to see how much. If values continue to rise we could eventually see replica cars.

There is something to be a said for a car that you can jump in and drive and not worry so much about value. My high mileage 993 WB (105k miles) was supposed to be that type of driver.

They also have a 993 TT with a few issues.

Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet | eBay

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by jeffbottman

Someday, probably sooner than you wish, all cars on the road will be electric and will drive themselves in autonomous swarms. Our gas cars will be illegal on the roads.

It's quite possible that the long-anticipated blow-up in later 911 prices will never have a chance to happen due to this regrettable situation.

But then I'm a pessimist by nature.

100% right. In 20 years or so, when the so-called millennials (who are majority communist) will be in many positions of power, private car ownership will face a formidable attack. And land ownership, too. they want everyone to live in 700sqft apartments in high density urban centers