What the heck is going on with Ferrari prices (BaT)

[93097004xx]

Wow last night researching the air cooled ups and downs on BaT I found it nearly impossible to drawl a conclusion on the air cooled market as a whole.

One thing I did notice is that BaT can bring big money for marginal cars and at the same time rather disappointing prices for relatively nice cars like last weeks 911 carrera cab.

So I decided to look at all the ferraris listed or sold on BaT. WOW really poor sell rate and even worse results. These are cars in pristine condition with miles in the 30,000 range struggling to break $40,000 308,348,355 and testarossas don't fare much better with prices in the $70,000 to $100,000.

I kinda have theory that cars that require big $$$ to maintain don't do well at all on BaT.

Btw there have been ZERO ferraris list on BaT recently and very few in the past months. I think this is do to the poor results 308,328,348,355 and testarossa have produced on BaT.

Can we drawl any conclusions from the ferrari market on BaT and the aircooled market?

[93097004xx]

BTW I'm in ALL DAY LONG for pristine $39,000 308s. I don't however believe that BaT is all the money on these cars and even more so.. good luck finding someone to sell their pristine 308 for that amount.


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[SalParadise]

BaT is taking on too many marginal cars of other makes.

There are not a lot of knowledgeable people on Ferraris. The same peanut gallery that comments on a tired 944 gets to comment on a TR. And the second thing: their writers are not up to snuff on these cars, and the typical Ferrari buyer wants the experience and to be coddled in a way - not trying to edit out or be mired in ignorant comments.

I know this. I worked at a Ferrari conversion place (AmeriSpec in Danbury, CT) and in college at ASU (Scottsdale Ferrari and Grand Touring Cars). BaT has no idea what sort of clientele they are dealing with - and they are going about it all wrong.

Talking Ferrari is specialized knowledge. The comments on BaT on Ferrari's are usually cliches - 'is that Thomas Magnum's car?' or 'Wow, I had a poster of that on my wall in the '80s.'

Seriously. If BaT wants to get serious on serious automobiles they would need to hire someone like me who was around them, drove them, and worked on them for decades. But it would be very labor intensive and I wouldn't be cheap.

A Ferrari is not a Series Land Rover nor it is an aircooled 911. And neither are the people who purchase them...

Nice comment and observation by the way.

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

Btw there have been ZERO ferraris list on BaT recently

Not true

http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1980-ferrari-308-gtsi/

[93097004xx]

Originally Posted by Rick Brooklyn

Not true

http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1980-ferrari-308-gtsi/

Wow they made 20,000 308/328s and BaT has only had success in listing a few cars.

This is do to poor results. Undoubtedly.

[zakira]

There was this, too.

1983 Ferrari 512 BBi | Bring a Trailer

But I do tend to think that BAT is not the venue for high end cars, though they come around a good deal, like the current Countach.

[specialtyoneinc]

If I was in the market for a Ferrari I definitely wouldn't buy one site unseen off BAT. I don't think allot of Ferrari enthusiasts frequent the site. However I feel like they are pretty spot on for the driver to nice condition Porsche aircooled market.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

Btw there have been ZERO ferraris list on BaT recently and very few in the past months. I think this is do to the poor results 308,328,348,355 and testarossa have produced on BaT.

There have been 11 Ferrari's on BAT in 2017.
Try the search feature
ferrari | Search Results | Bring a Trailer

[sugarwood]

Are most Ferrari transactions done via a dealer?
Maybe that is why the BAT prices seem low?
A high end guy is not going to be trolling CL for a car and going to random homes.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Are most Ferrari transactions done via a dealer?
Maybe that is why the BAT prices seem low?
A high end guy is not going to be trolling CL for a car and going to random homes.

Most Ferrari transactions are done with serious people who know the cars. People like Mike Sheehan is someone that people in the know go to. He doesn't deal with 308s/328s/348s usually, but since the market has changed, he may. Another person is Dick Fritz or Harley Cluxton or Bill Pollard. There are probably 10 others, but that's really about it.. These people know where every Ferrari of note has gone to, who has owned them, and if they are (or will be or maybe will be) for sale. These are people that have specialized knowledge. They have been in it for sometimes 40 years or more. Come to think of it, I have been in it as well for decades, but left the country for a time.

Most people who want a Ferrari (especially vintage) go to someone who has an eye on the market and someone who knows their history and knows where the quality cars are.

BaT isn't the venue right now. It just doesn't have the platform to move these cars. Ferraris in general are not hobbyist cars like a 911 is. People own them as status symbols, want to park them in the garage, say they have a Ferrari. In all the years of working around them (around 9) and being around 100s of cars, I only met ONE guy who did the work on his Ferrari (and that was an old 365). Porsches, by nature, are hobbyist oriented.

There are just too few Ferraris and too few of people that know how to properly work on them compared to an aircooled 911. Most Ferrari people want the experience of ownership, not the experience of working on them or driving them.

[vwsamba]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

There have been 11 Ferrari's on BAT in 2017.
Try the search feature
ferrari | Search Results | Bring a Trailer

[93097004xx]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

Most Ferrari transactions are done with serious people who know the cars. People like Mike Sheehan is someone that people in the know go to. He doesn't deal with 308s/328s/348s usually, but since the market has changed, he may. Another person is Dick Fritz or Harley Cluxton or Bill Pollard. There are probably 10 others, but that's really about it.. These people know where every Ferrari of note has gone to, who has owned them, and if they are (or will be or maybe will be) for sale. These are people that have specialized knowledge. They have been in it for sometimes 40 years or more. Come to think of it, I have been in it as well for decades, but left the country for a time.

Most people who want a Ferrari (especially vintage) go to someone who has an eye on the market and someone who knows their history and knows where the quality cars are.

BaT isn't the venue right now. It just doesn't have the platform to move these cars. Ferraris in general are not hobbyist cars like a 911 is. People own them as status symbols, want to park them in the garage, say they have a Ferrari. In all the years of working around them (around 9) and being around 100s of cars, I only met ONE guy who did the work on his Ferrari (and that was an old 365). Porsches, by nature, are hobbyist oriented.

There are just too few Ferraris and too few of people that know how to properly work on them compared to an aircooled 911. Most Ferrari people want the experience of ownership, not the experience of working on them or driving them.

What's your take on 930s? Are they hobbiest? I mean I consider myself fairly well mechanically inclined and would not think twice about doing general repairs/ maintenance on 2.0 2.7 3.0 3.2 911s or 914s. The 930 on the other hand I have heard from several people mechanics that's turbos are a whole other animal to work on in particular the calibration of the CIS injection system and building of the engine entails a lot more degree of precision expertise or one can end up with any number of BIG problems.

This is of course before you consider that you can rebuild a 3.2 for $12,000 pretty comfortably where a 3.3 rebuild is now full well $25,000 to $35,000 depending one what's needed.

I've recently learned that a new exhaust for my 79 930 from porsche BTW they no longer make the exhaust system for my 930 that vents the turbo exhaust through the exhaust pipe. So I have to go with a updated one from porsche is $7000 installed.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

The 930 on the other hand I have heard from several people mechanics that's turbos are a whole other animal to work on in particular the calibration of the CIS injection system and building of the engine entails a lot more degree of precision expertise or one can end up with any number of BIG problems.

Sorry, but you have been given misinformation by others; there is no more magic in the Turbo CIS/K-Jetronic system than in any other of the zillions of European made cars that used it, and building the engine requires no more precision than any other 4-stroke, internal combustion unit. People who have said otherwise are just spouting dreamyland, fanboy stuff (aka - they do not know what they are talking about).

[93097004xx]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

Sorry, but you have been given misinformation by others; there is no more magic in the Turbo CIS/K-Jetronic system than in any other of the zillions of European made cars that used it, and building the engine in no more precise than any other 4-stroke, internal combustion unit. People who have said otherwise are just spouting dreamyland, fanboy stuff (aka - they do not know what they are talking about).

I'm not making a smart reply here but Why does it cost 2XS as much to rebuild a turbo engine over a NA 911 engine?


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[Rawknees'Turbo]

^^^

There are a couple of things in play with that - the Porsche Turbo tax (no reason for the higher price other than "Turbo" . . . and people gladly open their wallets for it), and factoring in the removal, refurbishment and replacement of the turbocharger system components (including the scavenge pump system) - lots of time consuming, and expensive components to deal with that are not on a n/a engine.

Also, the increased head and cylinder temps of the turbo engine, detonation from poor tune, poor fuels, etc., and an absolutely dumb turbocharger oil scavenge system that promotes sending coked oil particles through the engine, all cause more components to wear out faster and experience damage at a higher rate than the n/a engines.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

What's your take on 930s? Are they hobbiest? I mean I consider myself fairly well mechanically inclined and would not think twice about doing general repairs/ maintenance on 2.0 2.7 3.0 3.2 911s or 914s. The 930 on the other hand I have heard from several people mechanics that's turbos are a whole other animal to work on in particular the calibration of the CIS injection system and building of the engine entails a lot more degree of precision expertise or one can end up with any number of BIG problems.

It's all in your mind when it comes to mechanical limitations. This at least my experience. In general most Porsche people that I have known or respected have known the basic relationship of systems and processes and several guys I know have rebuilt 4-cams and even one guy I respect (Wayne Beckwith) who taught me a lot in my college days rebuilt a 908 engine in our shop (Grand Touring Cars - Scottsdale) without any prior experience. He blew off most of what people call 'ritual and myth' surrounding certain cars and engines. Sure, there are people that practice the Dark Arts of Unknown things in automotive, but if you ask people about a 930 and they tell you these things remember: Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.

Growing up in Connecticut, my good friends father got into 930s in the late '80s bigtime. He was coming from '56 T-Bird ownership, and had a bunch of Brit cars like an old Lotus, etc. He learned very quickly. He did both motors. Sure he was an engineer and very smart, but he built those engines. He had serious skills, but he didn't let anything get in his way mentally.

The Ferrari crowd is very different. It's a topic of discussion when people get together on what mechanic they use, who they trust, etc., much more so like a status symbol than anything. Not that that's bad. Maybe Ferrari people have serious careers that do not allow them the time to spend on a car, especially when family comes first. Ownership to many Ferrari people is ownership but not using. They are scared to put miles on them. They are terrified to add miles. This may be from lack of time, as they have planes, boats, and myriad other cars, and vacations (you get the picture). But Ferrari's do not get worked on in general even close to the way people wrench around here. But then again, they do not get driven like old 911s do.

These are just general ideas off the top of my head as I type - and my opinion after being around lots of cars and lots of people.

[McLovin]

Having owned (bought and then sold) a couple of 80s V8 ferraris, I have a good idea why they don't do well on BaT.

The reason is the buyers of those cars are generally a nervous, inexperienced (an in my own experience an odd) group.

Very different than the Porsche buyer pool.

The typical 3X8 buyer is a prospective first time Ferrari owner. Typical first time Ferrari buyer:

1. Wants only red/tan. So any other combo has a price hit.

2. Is not very mechanically inclined or knowledgeable. So they tend to be very nervous.

3. Whatever knowledge they have, it tends to be from Internet boards. So it's mostly wrong.

4. They don't tend to do any wrenching. So EVERYTHING has to be handed to a mechanic. And unlike with Porsches, it's hard or impossible to find anyone who does not absolutely rape you for working on these.

5. Based on Internet fear, they place a very high value on things such as the car having every record since new. While those things are nice, of course, they shouldn't be life and death for a 30+ year old used car. (Examples are 911s - they sell no problem all the time with NO records). The condition of the car is the condition of the car.

Because of the above, the 3X8 tire kicker tends to be a pain in the rear.

A huge number of them also simply won't buy without a PPI. So the potential buyer pool on BaT is hugely reduced.

FINALLY, the 3X8 series are neat cars, but have never really been collectible. Prices over the years have languished for long periods of time. They did go up as all prices did during the last 8 years or so, but as prices have deflated in the past 2 years, they have helped lead the way. In any market downturn, they will always decline.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Having owned (bought and then sold) a couple of 80s V8 ferraris, I have a good idea why they don't do well on BaT.

The reason is the buyers of those cars are generally a nervous, inexperienced (an in my own experience an odd) group.

Very different than the Porsche buyer pool.

The typical 3X8 buyer is a prospective first time Ferrari owner. Typical first time Ferrari buyer:

1. Wants only red/tan. So any other combo has a price hit.

2. Is not very mechanically inclined or knowledgeable. So they tend to be very nervous.

3. Whatever knowledge they have, it tends to be from Internet boards. So it's mostly wrong.

4. They don't tend to do any wrenching. So EVERYTHING has to be handed to a mechanic. And unlike with Porsches, it's hard or impossible to find anyone who does not absolutely rape you for working on these.

5. Based on Internet fear, they place a very high value on things such as the car having every record since new. While those things are nice, of course, they shouldn't be life and death for a 30+ year old used car. (Examples are 911s - they sell no problem all the time with NO records). The condition of the car is the condition of the car.

Because of the above, the 3X8 tire kicker tends to be a pain in the rear.

A huge number of them also simply won't buy without a PPI. So the potential buyer pool on BaT is hugely reduced.

FINALLY, the 3X8 series are neat cars, but have never really been collectible. Prices over the years have languished for long periods of time. They did go up as all prices did during the last 8 years or so, but as prices have deflated in the past 2 years, they have helped lead the way. In any market downturn, they will always decline.

Good advice right here. Well said.

[McLovin]

They also buy into the Internet lore that there is mechanically something special or unique about the cars.

When nothing could be further from the truth.

They run the same CIS injection as a VW Rabbit, rubber timing belts that are the same (and are changed the same, actually easier) as a Honda, regular old smallish ATE brakes, etc. There is absolutely nothing mechanically unique or mysterious about them, but most Internet boards scare people into believing otherwise.

Any competent mechanic, or DIY'er, can work on them just as easily and successfully as a Porsche or VW.

One other thing that keeps their value down is, unlike 911s, 3X8 owners tend to be "one and done." Just like Wayne was. Because while they are pretty cars, they don't drive as good as they look. The steering is heavy and dull at the same time, the cars themselves are much heavier than you'd think, so they don't feel very nimble, and they aren't as fast as they look or as most people expect. That, along with the really unreasonable costs all Ferrari mechanics charge, tend to not lead to a lot of repeat buyers, one is enough to get it out of their system.

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by McLovin

The typical 3X8 buyer is a prospective first time Ferrari owner. Typical first time Ferrari buyer:

1. Wants only red/tan. So any other combo has a price hit.

2. Is not very mechanically inclined or knowledgeable. So they tend to be very nervous.

3. Whatever knowledge they have, it tends to be from Internet boards. So it's mostly wrong.

4. They don't tend to do any wrenching. So EVERYTHING has to be handed to a mechanic. And unlike with Porsches, it's hard or impossible to find anyone who does not absolutely rape you for working on these.

5. Based on Internet fear, they place a very high value on things such as the car having every record since new. While those things are nice, of course, they shouldn't be life and death for a 30+ year old used car. (Examples are 911s - they sell no problem all the time with NO records). The condition of the car is the condition of the car.

Because of the above, the 3X8 tire kicker tends to be a pain in the rear.

A huge number of them also simply won't buy without a PPI. So the potential buyer pool on BaT is hugely reduced.

You described me to a T, and in fact at one point I did consider branching out to a 328, but then I decided that if I ever buy a Ferrari it has to be a V12.