Where is the 964 market these days???

[mbintx]

Is the market in fact soft (compared to last year), or is it just that sellers are still asking sky-high prices and buyers are balking at top-of-market prices?
I've been on the hunt for a good 964 for a while, and I sense that the market has softened a bit. I still see high asking prices but the cars don't seems to be selling as quickly.
Are very good 964s really north of $50K?

Nervous...

[soundbehindyou]

I would venture to say yes the market has cooled. 964's are harder to find, but following air-cooled cars, i believe we are in a period of adjustment.

[manbridge 74]

I'm sure they will continue to rise unless Singer goes under.

[specialtyoneinc]

The 92-94 C2 5 spd Coupe Market hasn't cooled one bit. I've been following/trying to buy a nice condition, mostly original car for awhile and here's my breakdown.

Excellent condition cars - original, low miles, fully sorted - 60k below mileage or so = $75k plus plus - these are very rare (Holt Motorsport quality cars). Expect huge premiums for rare colors like Mint, Signal Green, Maritime Blue etc...

Good condition, no stories or rust, under 100k, maybe a rebuild, original paint etc... = $65k to $55k

Well sorted, clean modded cars can range from $50k upwards easily.

Couple good drivers pop up once in awhile. This supposedly has a pending in sale in less than 24 hours. Probably could of got mid $50s easily if marketed correctly. https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/6168272875.html

The 89-91 C2's and C4's on average can be bought for 10-20% less. If you are looking for an original, good, honest car it has been becoming harder and harder unless your budget is open. Way more demand than supply in the 964 coupe world.

I know Cabs and Targas go for less also but again the goods ones don't come cheap by any means.

The thing about the 964 Coupes is that they didn't produce allot of them compared to other 911 models and a huge percentage have been neglected and abused over the years (seems like the majority of the Porsche community crapped on them till 2014 or so). Look up Pelican and Rennlist member - Cobalt - posts. He's one of the most knowledgable posters when it comes to the 964.

Best of luck with your search.

[pu911]

^ This, market for good 964 C2 coupes is very strong, RSA prices may have come down a bit but everything else has stayed the same or increased.
Phil

[mbintx]

What's the discount for C4s (if any)?

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by mbintx

What's the discount for C4s (if any)?

This is a great question. I believe a '89 Carrera 4 is the only car I would trade my '75S for because it was the first new Porsche I ever drove. I always wanted one and should have gotten into one 5 years ago. All the ones I came across had all the lights on the dash lit - so it scared the heck out of me. Oh well, maybe if someone wanted to trade their red coupe for a '75S Targa (in California, perhaps?)

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by mbintx

What's the discount for C4s (if any)?

10-15% apples to apples condition most likely.

Keep in mind 89-91 964s (majority of the C4's built) didn't have head gaskets and pretty much all of them leaked like a sieve. If this issue hasn't been addressed & documented with a reseal/rebuild on the vehicle be careful unless you are picking it up on the cheap.

[bbturbo]

Prior to the rebuild with 177k, my 90 hadn't had the head gasket fix, and it leaked very little oil. Not all leaked, but most did for sure. There are rare ones out there.

[pu911]

I owned a an 89 that leaked like a sieve and a 90 & 91 that did not leak at all, the later build 91's had head gaskets. To say that pretty much all them leaked like a sieve is a gross overstatement, it's a very simple item to check during a PPI.
Phil

[TV74911S]

Have about 38k miles on it and haven't done a reseal but plan to do one in the not too distant future.

I bought mine before the market on them went through the roof - about five years ago. At that time, only '89s lingered on the market - largely due to the head gasket leaks. Today, even these cars don't last very long. There's one on BaT with a price at $30K with two days left. Will be interesting to see what this car finally brings.

This was a $12-$15K car not too long ago.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by pu911

I owned a an 89 that leaked like a sieve and a 90 & 91 that did not leak at all, the later build 91's had head gaskets. To say that pretty much all them leaked like a sieve is a gross overstatement, it's a very simple item to check during a PPI.
Phil

I meant the majority of the early engines. Let's say over 50%. Sorry if I offended you. Porsche fixed allot of them under warranty anyhow. Here's a good read.
http://www.instant-g.com/products/36conversions/3-6-engine-information/early-964-head-gasket-failure

[pu911]

No offence but I don't believe that 50 % of the head gasket less motors had leaks serious enough to require a rebuild. My understanding was this was an issue to be addressed during a valve unless leaks were serious. I'm not a mechanic so I don't really have any hard data to base this on- so I may have my head head up my ass. I heard the same sort of complaints about the 74-77 2.7 mg case motors for years- there were issues but they were generally overstated. My 2 cents- it would be preferable to find a 91-94 car with the updated motor or an early one that had been properly rebuilt but there is plenty of good solid cars that don't have any issues that are neither- I've owned two, maybe I just got lucky

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by pu911

No offence but I don't believe that 50 % of the head gasket less motors had leaks serious enough to require a rebuild. My understanding was this was an issue to be addressed during a valve unless leaks were serious. I'm not a mechanic so I don't really have any hard data to base this on- so I may have my head head up my ass. I heard the same sort of complaints about the 74-77 2.7 mg case motors for years- there were issues but they were generally overstated. My 2 cents- it would be preferable to find a 91-94 car with the updated motor or an early one that had been properly rebuilt but there is plenty of good solid cars that don't have any issues that are neither- I've owned two, maybe I just got lucky

Agreed. Most of the decent earlier cars I have come across have been resealed at one point.

[nathanbs]

Originally Posted by manbridge 74

I'm sure they will continue to rise unless Singer goes under.

I've heard this comment before but I don't get how it's conceivable that Singer is converting enough cars to affect the available supply in the market. What's the production numbers on 964's?

[littleoldman]

The C4 Awd is the most advanced Awd porsche made. Derived from the 959 and then retired because of the cost to manufacture.

The body also has added welds for structural rigidity.
So in effect it's better car than the C2.
My 91 C4 doesn't drip oil either. Like none and it's the original engine with 100k and still going great.

I'll assume specialtyoneinc is looking to buy a few hence his 10-15% discount Well played specialtyone. Well played.

[nathanbs]

Originally Posted by littleoldman

The C4 Awd is the most advanced Awd porsche made. Derived from the 959 and then retired because of the cost to manufacture.

The body also has added welds for structural rigidity.
So in effect it's better car than the C2.
My 91 C4 doesn't drip oil either. Like none and it's the original engine with 100k and still going great.

I'll assume specialtyoneinc is looking to buy a few hence his 10-15% discount Well played specialtyone. Well played.

Not the case. The C2 is lighter and people are scared of the added potential costs of servicing and/or replacing the awd system. This is info coming from someone that has bought and sold many C2's recently as I asked him the same question as you.

[bbturbo]

C4s do have more things that can go wrong, but are very reliable if cared for. It's all in the receipts and history.

[onevoice]

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

I meant the majority of the early engines. Let's say over 50%. Sorry if I offended you. Porsche fixed allot of them under warranty anyhow. Here's a good read.
Early 964 Head Gasket Failure – Instant-G

Once again the dreaded early cars leak oil from not having head gaskets line comes up again. Now it's "OVER 50%" OMG. Total BS.

There is absolutely no evidence, and no reason to state such an absurd number. There is no fluid that the head gasket seals into the motor except a small amount of combustion byproducts, i.e. Water vapor, and an extremely small amount of oil film on the cylinder wall. Inside the combustion chamber just isn't a source of oil. IF a car didn't have a good seal, AND it was driven on frequent short trips not allowing the motor to warm enough to burn off the water vapor, you might get a small amount of wetness at the head/cylinder interface. In no way would you ever get what I would describe as a LEAK, i.e. Something that consistently drips on the floor.

These cars have nearly THREE GALLONS of oil going through the motor, in many cases (sort of) contained by a questionable array of o-rings and seal designs that are obsolete. That is where the worry should be, not a lack of head gasket.

In the grand scheme of things, it's a non issue until you go through a rebuild that requires a replacement of Pistons and cylinders.

These engines were oil leakers, one of the historical books claimed a significant number were rebuilt at the factory, when they were found to leak oil when started for the first time. You are many times more likely to have a leak, and it be a real problem, from numerous other locations.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by littleoldman

The C4 Awd is the most advanced Awd porsche made. Derived from the 959 and then retired because of the cost to manufacture.

The body also has added welds for structural rigidity.
So in effect it's better car than the C2.
My 91 C4 doesn't drip oil either. Like none and it's the original engine with 100k and still going great.

I'll assume specialtyoneinc is looking to buy a few hence his 10-15% discount Well played specialtyone. Well played.

So in effect it's a heavier car than the C2 is more like it . I'm just stating what I've seen in the market over the past couple of years (follow it quite closely). I'm sure an expert will chime in regarding the difference of C2/C4 coupe values but I've noticed C4s going for less on average. It's not which car is better anyhow it's what's more in demand. I'm personally looking for C2 but would consider a C4 if it's the right car.