who’s the jerk - me or him?

[The Radium King]

so, i was almost the owner of an aircooled porsche. ad on the auction site read well, pics looked ok, so i threw in a bid and won. like a good guy i contacted the seller within 24 hours of auction close and got a deposit to him shortly thereafter.

i asked some questions. the ad stated “a complete documented engine rebuild and head job. Receipts total over $14,000 since I've owned it!” i asked for receipts and got two from a machine shop for around $1,300 for work on the magnesium case, and one from his own garage dated a year later - just before the auction - for $9,000 for engine teardown and reassembly (he owns a garage/bodyshop/dealership that specialises in high-end euro cars). when questioned he laughed and admitted that the work actually happened a year ago and that he had just created the $9,000 receipt recently for ‘tax purposes’. another point of interest, the receipt from the machine shop notes “block has pitting and corrosion on one cylinder sealing surface, used good sealer or epoxy to seal.” hmmm. big deal? dunno, but info sure wasn’t made available to potential buyers.

ad reads “no rust”. when questioned, apparently there is a bit of rust on the lower door. ad reads “I believe it's original color of red” except ... the car is guards red and the COA which he provided afterwards says peru red. when questioned he said he had no idea as the tag with the paint code on it had been painted over. at this point i am starting to wonder how much original car is under all that paint. i ask for vehicle history. there is none. title? open title from 2002.

ad says “it does need a cold start valve”. well, i thought, he does own a garage, so could i arrange to get it in to get a ppi and have the csv diagnosed? tried three times to get it checked out, but it became very apparent that he wanted it paid for before it went to a mechanic.

at this point i’d lost all trust in the transaction, especially a sight-unseen online transaction, and ended the deal. i asked for my deposit back. no luck.

this guy sells online, on ebay, and on this forum. i researched the name and didn’t get any bad hits so was comfortable paying the deposit. i would like to get word out on the seller and on the car so that someone else doesn’t get taken like i did, but first i have to determine whether I in fact i got taken. am i being too critical? vindictive? having lost my deposit i am a bit too close to all this still, and don’t want to burn a guy if the real issue is my lack of confidence in buying a car sight-unseen.

so, i am kinda testing the water here. if folks think i am out of line with my expectations then i’ll take my lumps. if folks think my expectations are justifiable then i’ll name names so that others will see this if they search and will be able to make a more informed decision.

[mattC2993]

You are supposed to due your due diligence before you bid on the car so you are in a tough spot. That said I would just walk if you think the seller isn't honest. From the sounds of it it will likely be your cheapest option.

[timchar]

You are being very reasonable. He’s being deceitful. You gave a deposit in good faith, he needs to return it. Self made receipt? no rust, not original color etc etc, give e a break. Good luck, Tim

[Cal44]

You ask questions after you bid and own?........ahhhh that isn't how it works. You bid and won, he wants his money, you want a PPI and haven't paid for it? that isn't how it works.
You aren't buying a new car...........you are buying a used car. You bought it now do the right thing. Or walk and the deposit is his. A deal is a deal

[The Radium King]

i see both sides of this argument, hence asking the question. and this dialogue is helping me better phrase my question.

i understand caveat emptor, and a deal is a deal, and my deposit is forfeit should i decide to not honour the deal. but there has to be some onus on the seller to properly represent what he is selling, especially in an online transaction (a deal is a deal until it isn’t - when does it stop being a deal? - should there be as much of a commitment to accurately represent an item when you hit the ‘list’ button as there is to pay when you hit the ‘bid’ button?). you cannot out and out lie and then claim caveat emptor, claim that it’s the buyers fault for not figuring out you were lying. even if you think that is fair, i would suggest that many wouldn’t and i would name the seller just so that folks that think like me can make an informed decision (hey, if you believe in buyer beware, then you should have to live with seller beware as well).

i am not looking to get my deposit back (hey, it would be nice, but is not the purpose of this post). what i am trying to sort out is whether the seller out and out misrepresented the car, or perhaps used misleading wording or omissions to maintain some plausible deniability, or whether it is just a used car and i shouldn’t expect a person who specialises in porsche sales be to able to tell the difference between peru red and guards red. i know nada about buying cars online, and was hoping those with more experience buying and selling could advise on the state of the real world out there.

[Corvus Corvax]

He was shifty, and you didn't ask the right questions ahead of time. You're both jerks.

If you plan on outting him here, you should tell him beforehand and give him one more chance to refund your deposit.

[The Radium King]

Originally Posted by Corvus Corvax

He was shifty, and you didn't ask the right questions ahead of time. You're both jerks.

If you plan on outting him here, you should tell him beforehand and give him one more chance to refund your deposit.

hey - i resemble that. and i thought about advising him of this, but didn’t wan’t to use the members and their opinions here in some form of unvetted forum extortion. the guy appears to do a lot of online sales, and should understand the need to maintain his online credibility; to have to explain that to him feels a bit threatening in nature, you know (one of those conversations that ends in “or else!”)? besides, he’s gone radio silence on me since i asked for my deposit back.

so, is he standard car dealer shifty and i should have expected it, or is he shiftier than usual? based on my one-sided account of how it went down.

[specialtyoneinc]

Why would you give the guy a deposit before asking him the questions and getting the documentation/receipts on the car? Anyhow, if your deposit was through Paypal or a Credit Card it shouldn't be hard to get back. The engine rebuild claim sounds shady by your description.

[Corvus Corvax]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

the guy appears to do a lot of online sales, and should understand the need to maintain his online credibility; to have to explain that to him feels a bit threatening in nature, you know?

so, is he standard car dealer shifty and i should have expected it, or is he shiftier than usual? based on my one-sided account of how it went down.

If it were me, and I got caught out being shifty, I wouldn't want to have to do reputation damage control over a couple of thousand bucks. But you throwing money at him without having documentation in hand first is kinda, well, dumb. In the end, I am always going to side with someone who is dumb over someone who is shifty. Being dumb is something we all get to take our turn being, but being shifty is a choice.

It's not a threat you're making. You want something from him in exchange. You're making a deal - if you choose one course, I will take this action. If you pursue another course, I will take some other action (like deleting this thread, for example.)

[The Radium King]

by ‘forum extortion’ i mean telling him that i am going to out him on the internet unless he gives me my deposit back. extortion defined as “the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats” where in this case the threat is outing him online. in order for it to be a threat, forum members have to read and participate in the thread. it is not my intention to threaten him for money nor involve forum members in the process.

i know nothing about buying cars online. painfully obvious that i should have asked more questions before (a) bidding, and (b) giving the deposit. the intention of the thread is to determine if the seller is a shady guy and, if so, try and protect future buyers by making them aware of his shadyness. and if this just business as usual in the car selling business then i am happy with my lessons learned.

edit to add to corvus - thanks. i am dumb. probably dumber that i am sharing all this! and trying to be thoughtful about it all, and good humoured. and wondering if i can help other dumb folks like me, but don’t want to burn a guy down if he doesn’t really deserve it.

[nathanbs]

You bid based on the description, you sent a deposit according to the rules and then like a ball of yarn you started to discover his lies based on asking for a few items and one lie led to another and another. Let's say for example that instead of starting to ask questions you simply paid balance based on photos, description and the rules and when you received the car you discovered all of these issues. Would you be a jerk? No. Moron? No. Partially responsible? No. Trusting? Yes. In this scenario I just created I would say you would be entitled to a full refund including your deposit. So why aren't you entitled to your deposit now?

[Unobtanium-inc]

As a seller of cars on ebay I have to say I find it very annoying when a car sits on ebay all week, no questions, no PPI's, etc. Then it sells and the buyer starts asking questions and requests a PPI. The time to due your research and ask questions is when you are thinking about buying something, not after you bought it. Bidding and winning a car does not get you an appointment to hold the car while you think about it, if you commit to buy it, you should be prepared to buy it, within the time frame laid out in the auction. Because when you win an auction and then decide you don't want the car it makes it much harder for the seller to re-sell the car. If he puts it back on ebay everyone thinks there is something wrong with it, even if there isn't, many times its that the buyer didn't even read the auction. I once had a guy win a car and ask if he could fly in and drive it home, the engine was clearly out of the car in the auction, he just didn't read the auction or look at the pics.
Bottom line, if you're not ready to buy cars on the internet and abide by the terms of the auction, don't attempt to buy cars on the internet, find cars that are local and go look at them.
In this case it sounds like the seller was not forthcoming in his description but all of these questions could have been asked and answered before you won the auction, so to answer your question, you are the jerk, you are breaking the contract you agreed to, it's that simple. You had plenty of time to research the car before you committed to buy it.

---Adam

[rxtrom]

I don't think it is as simple as claiming there is a contract and to pay up.

It is a contract, however, the seller misrepresented several material facts in the ebay listing. Fraud and misrepresentation are defenses for voiding a contract as are "mistakes" which are when a party believes a fact to be true when it is not.

You will have no problem getting your money back from paypal or your CC company. If it was a wire transfer which it sounds like it was, you are out of luck unless the seller changes his mind.

I would name drop as a last resort.

Good luck.

[nathanbs]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

As a seller of cars on ebay I have to say I find it very annoying when a car sits on ebay all week, no questions, no PPI's, etc. Then it sells and the buyer starts asking questions and requests a PPI. The time to due your research and ask questions is when you are thinking about buying something, not after you bought it. Bidding and winning a car does not get you an appointment to hold the car while you think about it, if you commit to buy it, you should be prepared to buy it, within the time frame laid out in the auction. Because when you win an auction and then decide you don't want the car it makes it much harder for the seller to re-sell the car. If he puts it back on ebay everyone thinks there is something wrong with it, even if there isn't, many times its that the buyer didn't even read the auction. I once had a guy win a car and ask if he could fly in and drive it home, the engine was clearly out of the car in the auction, he just didn't read the auction or look at the pics.
Bottom line, if you're not ready to buy cars on the internet and abide by the terms of the auction, don't attempt to buy cars on the internet, find cars that are local and go look at them.
In this case it sounds like the seller was not forthcoming in his description but all of these questions could have been asked and answered before you won the auction, so to answer your question, you are the jerk, you are breaking the contract you agreed to, it's that simple. You had plenty of time to research the car before you committed to buy it.

---Adam

Yeah I do sympathize and relate to this. I sold my dad's '55 Speedster for him approx 8-10 years ago on eBay and the winning bidder was a doctor in Germany that wanted to come look at it which was understandable given the amount of money. The rub was that he didn't communicate this to me prior to the auction end and he wasn't going to be able to make it for at least a month. Needless to say I immediately offered to the second place bidder.

[NYNick]

The seller was misleading; that's pretty clear. You didn't do your due diligence; also clear. This sounds like the kind of car sale that's what I call a "taillight warranty". As soon as the taillight disappears, the warranty expires. Not exactly an upfront representation of the car. He left all those details out on purpose and you swallowed it hook, line and sinker. At least you didn't take delivery!

I have no problem telling the guy the car wasn't represented accurately and fairly and that you want your deposit back. Tell him reviews on the internet can be important. If he's still radio silent at that point, out him, but don't make it a vendetta. You were at fault too.

[JMS935]

Since you’ve got a few different issues and some the seller may have covered himself for more than others, to me it breaks down to two words - “no rust”. Keep it simple, the seller advertised “no rust”, and then told you after he had your deposit in hand that the car has rust. That is deception. That is a lie. That is technically called theft by deception, a legal term used when someone induces you to commit to buying or investing in something under false pretenses, which is clearly what he did. “No rust” is clearly a lie, it is clearly deception. While you’ve got other issues with the car, it’s as simple as no rust means no rust. When no rust doesn’t mean no rust, it means the seller is a shyster and he deserves to be blasted in this forum and in his eBay remarks if he doesn’t return your downpayment. It is that simple.

Furthermore, if he has a dealership license to sell cars, the state he operates out of should be made aware of this. If he doesn’t return your deposit money in full, if I were you I’d consider bringing this issue to the state he operates in. It’s very likely your only one of many, and that this isn’t an isolated incident. And that every time it happens to someone else, they think just like you that maybe I’m making too big a deal out of it and just let it go, while this shyster keeps enriching himself by buying junk cars and passing them off as something that they’re not to unsuspecting buyers with false advertising.

You did nothing wrong. The seller is the one clearly in the wrong. Demand your money back and offer to leave it at that. If the seller refuses, blast him on this forum and in your eBay remarks. And if I were you I’d also call the state attorney’s office to make them aware of his shady business practices. That is what they are there for, to protect consumers from those licensed to operate in their state that are either operating illegally or unethically. Theft by deception is a crime, don’t take this lightly. And definitely don’t convince yourself that you’re in the wrong and just let it go. If you do that then the next buyer after you will get screwed just like you did, and this won’t end until someone finally speaks up.

[brianvb]

People misunderstand contracts. The deposit makes the contract. You made a contract. By auction. You actually owe ALL THE MONEY. I'm not trying to be rude but the deposit was never refundable. It sealed the deal. Try backing out at an RM Auction, good luck !

[nathanbs]

Originally Posted by brianvb

People misunderstand contracts. The deposit makes the contract. You made a contract. By auction. You actually owe ALL THE MONEY. I'm not trying to be rude but the deposit was never refundable. It sealed the deal. Try backing out at an RM Auction, good luck !

Actually you can if there is gross misrepresentation. I have heard of several cases of people getting their money back even after receiving the car after a big name auction. The contract he entered was to purchase said vehicle in said condition. If it is neither said vehicle and/or in said condition the contract is not valid.

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by brianvb

People misunderstand contracts. The deposit makes the contract. You made a contract. By auction. You actually owe ALL THE MONEY. I'm not trying to be rude but the deposit was never refundable. It sealed the deal. Try backing out at an RM Auction, good luck !

With all emotions aside, this is very true.

Problem is with these threads people get irate but there are rules in society and these rules are out there and they can either go in your favor - or against you - depending on the situation.

People scream 'Get your money back! Call your credit card! Threaten to sue!', etc, etc.

We all create our own reality. In reality some people think a car is good. Others think it stinks. Then there is a car that's good and stinks at the same time, and that's where most people meet in the middle.

For me, I say be educated. Take responsibility. Don't believe anything you hear.

When someone is not happy with something or something doesn't work out, I take that item back - or I refund the deposit immediately. That's me. That's how I do it. But there are others who do not think that way. It's their right. That's why we have contracts.

Just depends on which fight you want to fight, but going into to something, like Adam says very clearly, go about it and ask questions, PPI BEFOREHAND.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by brianvb

People misunderstand contracts. The deposit makes the contract. You made a contract. By auction. You actually owe ALL THE MONEY. I'm not trying to be rude but the deposit was never refundable. It sealed the deal. Try backing out at an RM Auction, good luck !

RM won’t ever advertise a car with no rust when it clearly has rust. They wouldn’t be in business if that were the case. Comparing this seller to one of the most well known collector car auction houses in the world is a bit of a stretch. Providing a deposit under false pretenses does NOT simply fulfill a contract that he needs to commit the balance of the funds to. That is wrong. You are wrong. He committed those funds under false pretenses, which false advertising, that is fraud. Fraud is a crime. But according to you, brianvb, the seller can say whatever the hell he wants in his listing to induce someone to commit to it, and then once they do, regardless of the fraud they just committed to do so, they are still entitled to being paid in full. Only in a lawless society would that hold true.