95-98 M3 purchase

[Kmatts]

Hey all,
I'm usually on the Porsche section, but i wanted to ask you all about the 95-98 M3. There are quite a few of them up for sale in the Seattle area and I really want one. they are priced anywhere from 15K-25K. can anyone give some advice on purchasing one?
how long until i need to have the motor rebuilt mileage wise, what about the bill?
any help appreciated.
Kyle.

[Kmatts]

wow, this is a quiet bb.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

What in particualr would you like to know?

[gr8fl4porsche]

I am also from the P-car side and have the same questions.

My brother is looking at a 97 M3 Tip with 24,000 miles.

Any motor issues with these cars?
Good car vs stay away?
What about average pricing?

[ChowderHead]

If you find a used m3 at a dealer you can probably get one that is certified as long as it is not older than a 98. My advice is to get a 99 that is certified from a dealer since the 97 -99 are basically the same car .
Go on line and print up used vehicle values from edmunds.com or from nada.com.They both are on the low side for vehicle values and will help you grind out the best deal.
Price range on a low miles(30 to 35,000) 99 with 100k warranty will probably set you back about 28 to 29 k depending on how hard you can negotiate.
A 98 with about 40,000 miles will probably go for around 26 to 27k from a BMW dealer and about 24k from a private party.
All I can say is if you find one you are thinking about , make sure you take it on a test drive through some insane curves at high speeds. If that doesn't help you make up your mind about that car , nothing else will.

[Wayne 962]

Good points. The 1995 cars are a bit unique - they had many one-year options on them, and I believe that they were only OBD I compliant - not OBD II. Parts can be difficult to correctly obtain for the '95s because they are different that the other years.

The cars are excellent and very reliable - I haven't heard many problems with them. It's the best option if you are racing, or if you are wanting to improve performance - start with an M3 and then upgrade from there on...

-Wayne

[Kmatts]

Guys, here is an example of some of the local (Seattle) M3's for sale.
http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=105151162&dealer_id=&make=BMW&distance=100&max_price=&model=M3&advcd_on=n&end_year=1999&min_price=&first_record=26&certified=n&address=98101&search_type=used&advanced=n&start_year=1995&=&color=&car_year=1995
sorry, if that link is long, just cut and paste it into your browser.
I didn't know the 1995's had many 1 year only options. So what about the 1996 & 97? Am i better off getting a later model for the money?
my main concern is that a lot of these M3's are higher mileage and I have no idea how much a top end would be on them.
any thoughts?
happy holidays all.
Kyle.

[Wayne 962]

I'm doing a top-end rebuild on my 325is right now (same style motor). I'll be doing a tech article on the procedure, and I'll let you guys know how much it is to have the head completely redone...

These M3s are nice cars - but I think that you can get good, low mileage examples in this price range. Try www.recycler.com for more info...

-Wayne

[Kmatts]

Wayne, that would be great. I will probably pick up your new BMW 3-series book when it comes out regardless if have purchased an M3 or not. I just used your 911 book a few nights ago when i replace the rotors on my SC.
I guess these M3's/325's are kinda like an SC motor in regards to longevity. I've seen some very nice high mileage cars that drive very well. now if i can manage to find the courage to jump into one. Kyle.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

From what i understand, there is also a lot you can do to the M3 motors in terms of upgrades. I have also heard that the E36 M3's are pretty much bulletproof. A really nice thing about these cars is the VANOS system. Essentially it is a variable valve timing system, similar to the Variocam setup on the newer Porsches, or the (shudder) Honda V-Tech. Keep in mind there were also two different motors in the M3. the 3.0 and the 3.2. Here are some specs.

1995 M3
3.0L 240 BHP VANOS DOHC 225 ft/lbs@4250 RPM.

1996-99 M3
3.2L 240 BHP VANOS DOHC 236 ft/lbs@3800 RPM.

So basically the later 3.2L has more torque that kicks in a little earlier than the 3.0. Basically, I'd look for the most well-maintained example you can find. BMW's are generally quite reliable, as long as they are maintained. Are you looking to buy from a dealer or a private party?

[Wayne 962]

I think that the pricing is simliar between the 1995s and 1996s too, so I would go with the later model for only slightly more $$$...

-Wayne

[Kmatts]

Jared & Wayne, thx for the info. much appreciated. I will buy from either a dealer or private party, but I would prefer to buy from a fellow car nut, not a dealer. (trust issues). I've read about the M3 for years and as i recall the M3 non-US version is much more powerful than the one we have here in the states. I'm hoping this horsepower can be captured via tuning, chip, free flow exh., etc. any thoughts here?

[Wayne 962]

Probably not without a bunch of very expensive mods. I have heard of people importing Euro motors, but then to get them smogged here in the US is nearly impossible. The US-version has a lot of US-spec components. You can probably make some more performance gains, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Supercharger, or some other forced induction system might help, but the M3 is already a high compresson engine to begin with...

-Wayne

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

Im not sure of all the differences between the US specs cars and ROW (rest of world), however i can imagine that it wold mainly be in the emissions systems. According to my info, the Euro 3.0 is rated at at 286 BHP and the Evo 3.2 at 321 BHP. From what i understand it is mostly due to different camshaft profiles from that of the US models. These specs are also listed using 98 octane.

[Kmatts]

Wayne, that's what i was wondering. thanks for the clarifications. Looks like i'll stick w/ 96 or later US spec car. I don't think i would supercharge an M3 w/o rebuilding the motor first. no point in burning up a perfectly good car. (cylinder walls exist for a reason!).
however, just to throw a wrench in my plans. My father is thinking of buying a new BMW and wants me to buy his pristine 93 (or 94?) 325i.
It's dark grey and in great shape. aggghhhhh, decisions, decisions.
I also looked and an M coupe with a friend last weekend. that thing looks fun, have either you or Jared driven/riden in one?

[Wayne 962]

What price is he asking, and what is the mileage? I got my 1993 325is last year with about 80K miles for $9300 (a good deal, but it had a tranny flub, that I bargained down the price for)...

-Wayne

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

I've driven a couple M3's. It's a COMPLETELY different car then the regular 3 series. The handling is more stiff, yet has enoguh play for city roads. I imagine this is different on the Euro M3's as well. Roads in the US are horrible compared to Europe, so they would have to be softer to account for our roads. Power wise, you can really feel the difference between the regualr 3 series. There is an almost instantaneous response when you hit the gas, whereas in the regular cars you have to spool them up a little before you're really making any BHP.

If I had the money, I'd go out and get an M Roadster. It's essentially the Z3 with the 3.2 M3 motor and suspension. Oh my god that car was fun to drive. Not really quicker than the M3, but the illusion of driving an open, small roadster with a powerful engine is a lot of fun. Plus, in my opinion the Roadster feels much more stiff and stable. That car is the same as the M Coupe, just as a convertible. Drive it, you'll love it.

[Kmatts]

Wayne, 85,000 miles, i'm sure it will be below $10k. he will probably go to the dealer to see what they will give him on a trade in and then we'll go from there. Dad is quite fair on things like this. The car has been garaged it's entire life, aside from missing the BMW sticker on one of the wheel centers, the car is pretty nice shape. the only problem i think he had was a faulty radiator (apparently they are plastic?). I'm still skeptical about this as well, i'm a little paranoid how long the motor will last. Kyle.

[M3Fan]

I'm looking to purchase a 95-99 M3 as well however, I'm going to go all out and turbocharge it at a Miami outfit. I've talked to several BMW 'experts' and they swore that M3 engines are bulletproof (especially the bottom end). All I'd need is to fortify the top end with a good head gasket and maybe a valve job. I was also concerned about rebuilding for forced induction, but the word is that it is not necessary to touch the bottom end. Have you heard otherwise?

Also, for those of you wanting to supercharge, you should check out this website: http://www.cartech.net/bmwm3turbo.htm. It may convince you to turbocharge instead!

[1974carrera]

I can add a litle bit to this thread. I have a 1997 M3 that I purchased in August '02.



I bought it from the second owner, who had only driven it about 5K miles during the year that he owned it. I use for a daily driver since my other fun cars (1974 911 Carrera, 1989 E30 M3) are somewhat less practical for that purpose. It had about 62K miles when I bought it in August and now has about 77K miles...no regrets and I would make the same decision again knowing what I know now. The E36 M3's are a really nice combination of performance, comfort and convenience in their stock configuration. After I got it I began thinking about all the mods I might do (there's a lot of stuff available when you look through the aftermarket), but am curently thinking I'll just leave it stock. I may be biased about this since I have other cars to feed my hardcore car needs, but I think BMW accomplished an amazing amount of performance in this car considering it is still tractable enough to drive around like your grandmother would, when you want.

As previously noted, the '95 cars are OBD I, and the '96 and later cars are OBD II. You'll find more "bolt-on" performance equipment for the OBD I 3.0 liter engines. To modify the 3.2 liter engines (they have more torque at lower revs, which is nice in street driving) most folks retro-convert back to OBD I to take advantage of many of the mods. If you get an E36 M3 and have to have a lot more power, without resorting to forced induction, the European 3.2 M3 engine might be a cost-competitive choice to building up comparable normally aspirated U.S. engine. Unlike the U.S engines which all use a single throttle body and single VANOS on the intake cam, the Euro 3.2 liter engine has six individual throttle bodies and dual VANOS (intake and exhaust cams).

There seem to be a few problem areas common to many of the E36 M3's, including the electronic climate control module, electric window motors (they continue to work, but erratically when the pinch-protection circuit begins to fail), rear upper shock mounts (relatively cheap), plastic portion of radiator's cracking/leaking, plastic thermostat housing's cracking/leaking, plastic impeller's failing on early water pumps (later cars had metal impeller's). All of these issues are easy to deal with, although some can cost a few bucks, so I suggest you check the repair history of any car you consider buying, accordingly.

There is a significant problem developing on a lot of the E36 M3 transmissions (and maybe other 3-series with 5-speeds, too). This problem involves the detent becoming sticky or vague when moving the shifter into the 5th gear gate. Initially this is only noticeable when the trans is cold, but seems to get worse as miles accumulate. BMW's position is that this is an internal trans problem and has nothng to do with the shift linkage. Their solution is to replace the transmission. My car developed this and I just had the transmission replaced by the dealer under the CPO warranty (what a deal!). Ask the owner about this on any E36 M3 you are considering. If the owner doesn't seem to know anything about this, be sure to drive the car when it is cold (as in it has been sitting overnight). With the car in neutral the shifter should sit in the 3rd/4th gear gate. If the trans has or is developing the problem, the shifter will feel "sticky" when moving agianst the spring into the 5th gear gate (compared to how it feels when moving towards the 1st/2nd gear gate). On mine and many others the shifter would actually stay under the 5th gear gate instead of residing between 3rd/4th gear gate, until the car was driven awhile and the trans was warmed up.
See this thread on Bimerforums for more info http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=48002&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

I probably spent too much space talking about problem areas and not enough about how much fun the E36 M3 is. All cars have common problem areas and none of the ones I mentioned are deal-breakers (but be careful about the trans issue). All in all these are reliable cars that are really satisfying to drive. By the way, the BMW CPO warranties are transferrable so you can still get this even when purchasing from a privte owner(assumong the car has it).