[flash968]

man has this gotten out of control

just so nobody thinks i'm trying to skate on safety, i have full 5 pt harnesses on both seats and rollover protection in my toy

harness and rollover protection are completely independent issues - true rollover protection would never come into play unless the car rolled over, which is by far the minority of incidents - harnesses would come into play in almost any incident

most cars out there in a DE have no rollover protection

harnesses improperly installed, which is to what i think you are referring, can result in spinal compression injuries - that does not mean that harnesses cannot be properly installed without rollover protection

i am referring to the segment of lower level cars - there are a LOT of them - they are primarily older 911s, 914s, and 944s - you may or may not see them at your region, but i have seen them in mine, and others - the owners of these cars are often struggling as it is - it's a stretch for them to afford to get out there - you can see evidence of that from many discussions here - people are constantly complaining about the cost of maintenance of these cars - frankly i think they are very cheap, and typically spend $15k a year maintaining my toy, so i am not that audience, but i can certainly appreciate the situation of the guy who just wants to learn to drive and has to buy things for his car a paycheck at a time

as for the majority of the club being wealthier, i think you need to take another look - while certainly many of them are, by and large the average income is quite middle class (about $97,000/yr) - the largest group of owners by far are those with older cars, which are relatively inexpensive to own - the guys on this board are typical examples - poll them and see

as for the instructor, he is the party responsible for establishing the parameters of the safety of both parties - in the event of an incident whereby the student entered into a situation which resulted in an accident that could have been avoided had he not been out of position and unable to control the car, the argument would be made that the instructor directed the student to enter into a situation which was unmanageable, thereby contributing to that accident - contributory negligence would apply here - sooner or later somebody is going to get hurt that didn't need to, and somebody is going to sue - some poor instructor is going to lose his house, and pca is going to take a big hit

the instructor is the one who determines how fast a student drives - he is the one who determines his own safety - if he thinks a student is putting him in danger, he is in a unique position to do something about it

if a student gets out of control in a situation, and is not firmly planted in the seat, he is less likely to regain control of that situation than if he is planted in the seat

all they have to do is separate out cars with 2 people, not allow passing ever in that group, and control the pace - problem solved

for the record, you should NEVER remove and reinstall seats on a continued basis - the threads in the floor are not designed for this - they lose their ability to retain torque very quickly - they are designed to be installed ONCE - if removed, they are to be reinstalled using a threadlock compound

all i am suggesting is that removing any safety device puts any occupant at more risk - putting anyone at more risk is worse - any additional safety device is better than no additional safety device

i don't understand why this logic escapes people

frankly i'd like to see all street seats and street belts in separate groups from those with harnesses and such - it is all too common for someone's ego to get the better of them and drive beyond their ability and try to keep up with a faster driver, even if in a slower car - far too often we see a slower car grouped with a fast one, just because a driver is the same skill level - this would be fine if it weren't for the guy who thinks he drives better than he does and feels that if that 60 year old guy in the 912 can keep up with the girl in the GT3 then so can he in his 951 - he doesn't realize that the 60 year old guy in the 912 has won 40 national championships and could drive blindfolded

more run groups and less time each is a better answer than piling up cars

we all want everyone to be safe - we all want everyone to drive better - i simply think that we need to keep the main goal in mind, and put the responsibility of establishing the safety parameters back on the instructor, not on the student's wallet

the other thing to remember is that these are DRIVER EDUCATION events - they are designed to teach students how to drive on a race track so they can go racing - you aren't supposed to stay there - you are supposed to learn how to drive and then go racing