'86 930 CIS Ignition Issues Seemed To Start When Alarm Issues Started

[spoke]

Over the weekend, the alarm on my '86 930 started beeping when the driver door was wide open. Seemingly at the same time, I had a little trouble starting the car. At that time the alarm was not going off.

Engine is CIS with Permatune.

Ran great for a day then on a 1 hour drive, I lost idle halfway through the ride. Engine would die immediately when left to idle although would still run great when on the throttle.

After the ride and engine cooled down, it was very hard to start; had to try about 15 times before I could get it to start. This was with opening the throttle like starting a carbed car. I opened the idle screw to get it to idle at 1k RPM but was running rough.

Wanting to eliminate the alarm from the issue, I bypassed the alarm as detailed in many threads (61-61 and K1-15). Now the fuel pumps run any time the car is on. The car was still very hard to start.

Got it started and let it idle for about 10 minutes to warm up. Then the engine started idling very rough and the tach was bouncing crazily all over the place. I jumped on the throttle to try to rev the engine and it died and wouldn't restart. Tried squirting starting fluid and still no start.

I think it's ignition related. I have Peratune with a standard Bosch blue coil. Also found the advance can on the distributor is leaking and doesn't work. Not sure if this is new or not.

Questions:
1) Where can I get a new/used advance can? Philbin in Oregon won't repair it.
2) If I want to put a different CDI unit in, which one to purchase?
3) Is the Bosch blue coil ok in the car (been in there 3 years) if not which coil to purchase.

Car will start now but a couple of times after starting, I revved the engine to 2-3k and after a 10-20 seconds the engine died and the tach needle fell like a rock like the spark died.

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

[T77911S]

dump the permadoom and blue coil.

at min put a MSD 6al and coil in there.

if interested I can post pics of how mine is mounted,..
I also mounted the coil right side up in the original location.

could be fuel related.
I would check fuel pressures
if no gauges at least check for power at the WUR.

alarm wont cause this,. the alarm disables it completely or it should. don't know much about the alarm.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by T77911S

dump the permadoom and blue coil.

at min put a MSD 6al and coil in there.

if interested I can post pics of how mine is mounted,..
I also mounted the coil right side up in the original location.

could be fuel related.
I would check fuel pressures
if no gauges at least check for power at the WUR.

alarm wont cause this,. the alarm disables it completely or it should. don't know much about the alarm.

I think it's ignition related but I'll check anything right now. Dumb question: where is the WUR located? Not sure I've looked at it before.

A note about when this no-idle situation (and hard starting) happened, I was half way through a 1 hour drive; lots of stop-n-go for the first 1/2 hour, then 3 miles of open highway and I went WOT through 2nd and 3rd gears. At the next traffic light turning red>green, I down shifted 3rd>2nd and the engine had died instead of idle. Popped the clutch in 2nd and it started and took off. No idle after that.

[T77911S]

starting right back up is not "usually" ignition related. heat usually makes a marginal ignition system go bad and it will not work again until it cools. then the car runs fine until hot again.

you could also have an air leak. when cold the rich mixture covers it up, once hot and the mixture leans out it wont idle.
check the big Orings on the IC and check the up pipe form the turbo.

the WUR is located to the right of the TB, about its 2 oclock position. it has 2 fuel lines going to it and an electrical connector.

[full quack]

Alarm beeping usually means low battery.
Firing up again right after running awhile, usually indicates a weak battery that holds a charge for a short time frame, before bleeding off to a hard start situation.
Won't idle but runs at higher rpms, usually means low voltage to ignition at low rpm's.
Dancing tach usually means dying alternator.

For what it's worth...but that doesn't mean your ignition isn't acting up as well.

Mark

[spoke]

Whatever is happening with the engine, it seems to have happened in an instant. At one traffic light the engine was idling smoothly; three miles down the road at the next traffic light, the engine dies and will no longer idle.

One thing about that 3 miles is I went WOT throttle through 2nd and 3rd. I wonder if I could have blown off a fitting such that there's a massive air leak. My buddy said it sounds like an air leak but I couldn't tell with all the 911 engine noises. I sprayed carb cleaner on all the intake components except the turbo or any hoses under the engine tin and didn't suspect a leak.

[T77911S]

you need to check/remove the IC orings.
if the IC is not bolted down it will blow off.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by full quack

Alarm beeping usually means low battery.

Thanks for the info. This alarm beeping was in direct coincidence to the positioning of the driver door. Wide open door and alarm goes off. Close it by 3 inches and alarm off. Open by 3 inches and alarm on.

I've measured the resistance of the alarm wire at the alarm and now for most of the door travel the resistance is infinite (open circuit). For wide-open door, it's zero resistance (short to ground). And somewhere in between I get a reading of about 4.7kohm. When the key is turned to on, I read 3.32kohm. These reading are correct for the resistors across the key contacts.

[full quack]

Well that's more info.
So the problem is most likely in the door or door jam, depending on where your door alarm sensor switch/contact is actually located. If the switch/contact is in the door, it could simply be a chafed wire short, caused by the movement of the wires connected to the door switch/contact as the door is being opened and closed.

Or it could be that your door sensor switch/contact is located on the door jam, very close to the door pivot point, so the actual working travel of the switch itself is the culprit.

Very doubtful the problem is in the alarm control itself.

Just a thought.

Mark

[Rich76_911s]

I’m terrible at diagnosing issues so I’ll save you from that.

But what I can tell you is be methodical in your approach to checking each system. I had similar problems and I tried a hodge lodge of fixes instead of being systematic and it took me months to find a clogged fuel injector was the issue.

I’d suggest starting with the easiest system. (Maybe checking for air leaks). Then move to the most likely (fuel or ignition) then if nothings been found check the last (fuel or ignition). But when you check a system focus on it and go from top to bottom. Don’t skip something thinking that’s not it.

I checked the hell out of my fuel system, but skipped checking the injectors because it hadn’t been listed as the possible cause. I even checked that each cylinder was getting even amounts of fuel but didn’t pull the injectors.

Do you ever get down towards Philly? I have a set of cis gauges I could lend you for a week or two. I wish I was a tad closer and could swing by and help.

Rich

[Bucketlist]

Originally Posted by spoke

Whatever is happening with the engine, it seems to have happened in an instant. At one traffic light the engine was idling smoothly; three miles down the road at the next traffic light, the engine dies and will no longer idle.

One thing about that 3 miles is I went WOT throttle through 2nd and 3rd. I wonder if I could have blown off a fitting such that there's a massive air leak. My buddy said it sounds like an air leak but I couldn't tell with all the 911 engine noises. I sprayed carb cleaner on all the intake components except the turbo or any hoses under the engine tin and didn't suspect a leak.

It happened to me.....
On the way to a car show one early Saturday morning I pulled up at a light next to the wife in the Z4. Couldn't resist a little race....blew her away. When I took my foot off the gas the Porsche would no longer idle. Spent some time looking for the problem but couldn't find it. Left the Porsche in a parking lot and went on to the show with her (another 20 mi). Stopped on the way home to check it one more time before calling the tow truck. I had blown the hose off of the blow off valve causing a massive vacuum leak. Wasn't obvious because it is under a cover. 5 minute fix.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by Rich76_911s

Do you ever get down towards Philly? I have a set of cis gauges I could lend you for a week or two. I wish I was a tad closer and could swing by and help.

Rich

Thanks Rich,

It may get to that level of testing. If I get there, I may take you up on the offer.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by Hot Euro

It happened to me.....
On the way to a car show one early Saturday morning I pulled up at a light next to the wife in the Z4. Couldn't resist a little race....blew her away. When I took my foot off the gas the Porsche would no longer idle. Spent some time looking for the problem but couldn't find it. Left the Porsche in a parking lot and went on to the show with her (another 20 mi). Stopped on the way home to check it one more time before calling the tow truck. I had blown the hose off of the blow off valve causing a massive vacuum leak. Wasn't obvious because it is under a cover. 5 minute fix.

This parallels my experience. Idle ok at one traffic light; after WOT in 2nd and 3rd, no idle at the next. I'll keep looking this weekend.

[spoke]

Found a vacuum leak at the inlet of the turbo. The crack in the hose where the screwdriver is inserted is about 2 inches long. Not sure if this is the culprit but it definitely needs replaced.

[spoke]

Removed the coupling to the turbo. It had 2 large cracks in it. Not sure if this would cause loss of idle but it certainly could contribute to it.

I had to cut off the turbo coupler since the inlet tube doesn't move around that much.

Question: Is it possible to get the new coupler on w/o removing the engine? Doesn't seem to be that much clearance to install the coupler.

[Bucketlist]

[QUOTE=spoke;10124300]Removed the coupling to the turbo. It had 2 large cracks in it. Not sure if this would cause loss of idle but it certainly could contribute to it.

I had to cut off the turbo coupler since the inlet tube doesn't move around that much.

Question: Is it possible to get the new coupler on w/o removing the engine? Doesn't seem to be that much clearance to install the coupler.

Yes, you have to start by removing the elbow from the fuel meter allowing you to move the down pipe far enough to get the hose (coupler) in there. It is really tight but will go. Trim it to length before trying to install. I used something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-75-4-PLY-TURBO-INTAKE-INTERCOOLER-PIPING-SILICONE-COUPLER-HOSE-T-CLAMP-BLUE/191378734610?hash=item2c8f0fbe12:g:3oAAAOSwonBaMYP m:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!79424!US!-1

[spoke]

Got the new turbo hoses installed. Engine still having issues. It seems there is no spark at times.

Several times now the car has started right up and ran for a 1/2 minute or so then just shut off. The tach drops like a rock and the engine winds down to a stop.

I swapped coils with my 914 which uses the same Bosch blue coil and the same performance was observed. I'm ready to put in a new spark unit.

An MSD 6al and coil has been suggested. Where is the best place to purchase this spark unit and coil?

[spoke]

I see there's an MSD 6AL-2 with programmable distributor curve.

"The Programmable 6AL-2 lets you lock out the distributor and program a timing curve via a PC."

Since the vacuum advance can on the distributor is leaky and apparently not repairable or replaceable, would the AL-2 programming feature allow "bypassing" of the vacuum advance?

[spoke]

Looks like I can purchase a new distributor for $1800. Yikes!

[T77911S]

just get the basic 6al. about 250.
I mounted mine on the left side above the relay panel. had to relocate a relay to the side but it looks better there.

you need to verify fuel pumps are running when it stops. I would remove the connector on the top rear of the AFM. this will run the pumps all the time with the key on.

check for spark

you need to swap the + and - from the dist that goes to the MSD. you can get a connector that will mate to the factory one. swap it there. that way if you want to plug in a bosch unit you still can. I carry my bosch as a spare.