Greetings from Austin, TX... My due diligence is underway.

[GregB]

Hello All!

It's been several years since I was a card carrying member the air-cooled 911 crowd.

Sold my '89 Carrera in 2011 after nearly 17 years of ownership and am starting to think about a purchase of a 930 in the coming years. I have really enjoyed immersing myself back into these forums and soaking up all the technical info here.

Interestingly, I had convinced myself that the "holy grail" of 930 ownership MUST be the 1989 930, since it has the 5-speed.... vs. a widely-spaced 4-speed that is frequently blamed for exacerbating the turbo lag of the 930. The more I read these forums though, the less I am convinced that it's really that simple anymore.

One thread discussed the merits of the 5-speed when paired with a 100% stock engine.... it seems to help keep the revs closer to boost, and somewhat mitigates the lag of the stock turbo. However, guys with upgraded K27s and exhaust mods feel like a 5-speed is poorly matched with higher HP engines. The longer legs of the 4-speed seem better matched to an engine with more power, and the gears are more usable.

I'm encouraged that the 930 market seems to be "coming my way" pricewise and perhaps in a few years when I find the perfect car it won't require me to sell a kidney to rejoin the Porsche family.... being able to expand my search to include all the 3.3 liter cars '78 - '89 obviously gives me a much better chance of finding good choices than artificially limiting myself to 1989 models only.

Recently, I've relocated to Austin, TX and I'm sure that there are 930 enthusiasts, repair shops and other vendors close by... and I look forward to figuring all of that out as time goes by. For me at least, the research and the thrill of the hunt is a great source of enjoyment in this process, so I look forward to lurking around here and hopefully meeting the local 930 folks eventually as well.


Cheers!

-G

[908/930]

Hi,

I'm sure others with way more experience then me will give advice but fairly sure the 1989 second gear is close to the four speed first gear, so it is not really a close ratio trans. You can always change the ratio's in the four speed, just makes finding a car way easier.

Being in TX, the AC ducts on the 1986? and up cars are larger, probably helps make the AC work better.

If the four speed is laggy just add HP.

[GregB]

Originally Posted by 908/930

Hi,

I'm sure others with way more experience then me will give advice but fairly sure the 1989 second gear is close to the four speed first gear, so it is not really a close ratio trans. You can always change the ratio's in the four speed, just makes finding a car way easier.

Being in TX, the AC ducts on the 1986? and up cars are larger, probably helps make the AC work better.

If the four speed is laggy just add HP.

Interesting!

I haven't really gotten too far into the gearing analysis yet (though I'm sure I will!) but it certainly seemed that guys with an extra 100WHP were far less concerned about the 4-speed. Being able to pull 90MPH in 2nd gear is just hysterical to me.... I remember when it seemed wild that my Carrera could reach 90MPH in 3rd.

AC is going to be an issue. It's a little like deja-vu thinking about those kinds of things again. MANY years ago, I remember guys were talking about using "barrier hoses" as a remedy for all those long lengths of factory AC hose. Was discussed as a way to hold the charge longer? It's been a long time, so I'm sure this probably isn't hard to solve anymore. There's probably a FAQ somewhere, just need to find it.



-G

[willtel]

4 Speed

1st gear: 2.25
2nd gear: 1.304
3rd gear: 0.893
4th gear: 0.625
Ring and pinion: 4.22

5 Speed

1st gear: 3.154
2nd gear: 1.789
3rd gear: 1.269
4th gear: 0.967
5th gear: 0.756
Ring and pinion: 3.44

[mark houghton]

I have no reference point to give a comparison, having never driven a 930 with a 5 speed tranny. Personally, I would stay with the 4 speed configuration, and that includes the heavy flywheel and overall clutch/PP assembly. That clutch mass allows rotational energy to be stored and somewhat gradually released (lacking a proper Phd in physics description). This in turn gives the turbo time to spool up to match the power output of the engine. You put shorter gears in there (5 speed) and you'll be shifting before the turbo's output is at max. These babies aren't meant to beat anything off the starting line other than maybe a VW Bug, but with the 4 speed you just leisurely stand on the throttle and watch the rpm's until it's time to shift. Got better things to do....like keeping her straight down the road, vs. dicking around with shifting. Just an old farts opinion... :-)

[jpnovak]

There are several 930s here in Austin. We have a very good group of enthusiasts. Let me know when you are ready to join the fun.

About gearing... Ask John... first drive in his new-to-him 78 930. My comment as I am behind the wheel. "Did you know this will do 90 in second" as I plant my foot. Whoosh. fun times exposing how well these cars do to everyone.

A few bolt on mods and proper CIS setup on a stock 4 speed and you can over a lot of ground without shifting. Add EFI and things become different and open new possibilities quickly.

[Bucketlist]

Originally Posted by GregB

Hello All!
I'm encouraged that the 930 market seems to be "coming my way" pricewise and perhaps in a few years when I find the perfect car it won't require me to sell a kidney to rejoin the Porsche family....
-G

Welcome to the forum... Contrary to popular opinion I believe these cars have leveled out in pricing but I doubt they will be any less money in a few years. Start saving your pennies and see what you can find. There are a few cars out there, if you are lucky you'll find one in Austin and not have to deal with BAT or travel across the country. Good luck!

[GregB]

Originally Posted by willtel

4 Speed

1st gear: 2.25
2nd gear: 1.304
3rd gear: 0.893
4th gear: 0.625
Ring and pinion: 4.22

5 Speed

1st gear: 3.154
2nd gear: 1.789
3rd gear: 1.269
4th gear: 0.967
5th gear: 0.756
Ring and pinion: 3.44

Thanks! That information is extremely helpful (see draft analysis below)

Originally Posted by mark houghton

I have no reference point to give a comparison, having never driven a 930 with a 5 speed tranny. Personally, I would stay with the 4 speed configuration, and that includes the heavy flywheel and overall clutch/PP assembly. That clutch mass allows rotational energy to be stored and somewhat gradually released (lacking a proper Phd in physics description). This in turn gives the turbo time to spool up to match the power output of the engine. You put shorter gears in there (5 speed) and you'll be shifting before the turbo's output is at max. These babies aren't meant to beat anything off the starting line other than maybe a VW Bug, but with the 4 speed you just leisurely stand on the throttle and watch the rpm's until it's time to shift. Got better things to do....like keeping her straight down the road, vs. dicking around with shifting. Just an old farts opinion... :-)

I'm starting to suspect there is more to the discussion about 4-speed vs 5-speed than just the gears. The quick analysis I ran through last night shows a few interesting facts and already seems to disprove some of my early assumptions. The perceptions might be more related to the "feel" of the mechanical vs hydraulic clutch setups, ease of shifting, etc than of actual gearing. (?)

Originally Posted by jpnovak

There are several 930s here in Austin. We have a very good group of enthusiasts. Let me know when you are ready to join the fun.

About gearing... Ask John... first drive in his new-to-him 78 930. My comment as I am behind the wheel. "Did you know this will do 90 in second" as I plant my foot. Whoosh. fun times exposing how well these cars do to everyone.

A few bolt on mods and proper CIS setup on a stock 4 speed and you can over a lot of ground without shifting. Add EFI and things become different and open new possibilities quickly.

EXCELLENT! Just what I was hoping to hear! It's funny how sometimes (even in the early stages of research and casual shopping) if you put the word out.... people will often send information or tips your way and help move the process along. Finding a solid mechanic is critical, so I'm hoping that you've got information to share... when I lived in the SF Bay area, I had a great indy shop that did all my work and it made aircooled 911 ownership a real pleasure.

Originally Posted by Hot Euro

Welcome to the forum... Contrary to popular opinion I believe these cars have leveled out in pricing but I doubt they will be any less money in a few years. Start saving your pennies and see what you can find. There are a few cars out there, if you are lucky you'll find one in Austin and not have to deal with BAT or travel across the country. Good luck!

Thanks! We will see what the future holds... I'm starting early because these cars aren't all that common, and since I want a specific color combination it's very likely to take a while to locate anyway. Patience will be the key. I can't afford a 6-figure "weekend car" so for my own selfish reasons I'm hoping that prices come back out of the stratosphere where enthusiasts (not speculators) can hope to own cars like this again.


SO:

Interesting data to share if anyone is interested with a few initial comments about what seems to be indicated here:


EDITED VERSION 11/22: (Corrected R&P ratio for 5-speed)



I think most of the basic data at the top is correct (Peak TQ might be a tad optimistic)... curb weight, tire diameter, gear ratios, etc. Basically a simple 2-column comparison between the 4-speed and 5-speed 930s.

Look at the Acceleration in each gear (Ft/Sec) which is really where you get the sense of how aggressively the car is going to move through a particular gear. In both cases, the values in 1st, 2nd and 3rd are really not all that different!! The apparent value of the 5-speed is that pulls 4th gear a bit lower so that it pulls stronger, and then drops a taller gear above that. This was surprising....

Next was that the gearing on both setups is capable of FAR more than 160MPH top speed that I believe is the published spec? My only guess is that the gorgeous wide-body is simply too hard to push through the air beyond 160MPH with the 282HP that it came with. Perhaps the modded 930s are a different story. Top speed is certainly not gear-limited.

RPM drops between gears is relatively similar as well. Shifting at 7000RPM in 1st seems to put the car in the nice meaty part of the powerband (~4000RPM) into 2nd gear, and the 3rd gear shift lands at around 4800RPM... so from the numbers, these cars should be pulling like freight trains through all the gears and maintaining boost as well....

Fun stuff.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've still got lots of lurking, reading and studying to do.


-G

[908/930]

Not sure why I was thinking that first gear on the 5 speed was lower but I was wrong, and 4th on the 5 speed is in a good location, the jump from 3rd to 4th on the 4 speed is a little too much, given the opportunity I will drop 3rd and 4th ratios down a notch.

If you plan to drive lots in traffic on hot days find a different car, I don't think this is your intention though. I think you know the shifting on the 4 speed is a little slower, but if you are not racing not really a issue, as far as mechanical clutch mine is not hard to press in, it would be interesting to have two cars with the hydraulic and the mechanical clutch side by side to get the difference in feel.

[slow&rusty]

We can talk about gear ratios ad nauseum, but one thing we're forgetting is driving style and what as a driver you're looking for. Some guys like to wind out their cars, others shift like grandpas. What about the feel, throw and engagement of the 4-speed vs the hydraulic 5-speed, what makes you feel more connected as a driver? Is there a difference? Yes...does it depend on you as a driver? Absolutely!

Drive both then decide.

[GregB]

Originally Posted by 908/930

Not sure why I was thinking that first gear on the 5 speed was lower but I was wrong, and 4th on the 5 speed is in a good location, the jump from 3rd to 4th on the 4 speed is a little too much, given the opportunity I will drop 3rd and 4th ratios down a notch.

If you plan to drive lots in traffic on hot days find a different car, I don't think this is your intention though. I think you know the shifting on the 4 speed is a little slower, but if you are not racing not really a issue, as far as mechanical clutch mine is not hard to press in, it would be interesting to have two cars with the hydraulic and the mechanical clutch side by side to get the difference in feel.

Yeah, this would be a pleasure car..... drive to work on nice Friday's or weekend drive for donuts, car shows or club events type of deal. Austin is hot in the summer so I'll definitely have to find the AC FAQ and study up on how to optimize that...otherwise, you're right.....I'm not going to want to drive the car much.

Originally Posted by slow&rusty

We can talk about gear ratios ad nauseum, but one thing we're forgetting is driving style and what as a driver you're looking for. Some guys like to wind out their cars, others shift like grandpas. What about the feel, throw and engagement of the 4-speed vs the hydraulic 5-speed, what makes you feel more connected as a driver? Is there a difference? Yes...does it depend on you as a driver? Absolutely!

Drive both then decide.

For sure... and I didn't want to do a deep-dive on gearing ratios either. It was more of a surprise that the spacing between gears was not as wildly different as I'd been led to believe. I think a 4-speed could end up being a lot of fun.... and the anticipation of boost building at full-throttle seems to hold a lot of charm for the 930 anyway. Would love the chance to drive a 930 (of either type) or even get a ride in one to better appreciate the whole "experience". Even with my old G50 transmission, it was never a particularly fast-shifting car (on the 1 - 2 shift at least)... so I expect that part won't be unfamiliar. I learned a long time ago that you don't powershift a 911..... the car decides how fast it will allow the shifts will be, and you just need to make peace with that!


-G

[908/930]

There is a cure for the AC, search the forum, I can not remember the company that makes a kit with new lines for 134a and other possible options.

Sounds like there are some 930's near you, good idea to go for a ride and get use to them and figure out what you really want. You had a 911 before so at least you have an idea what to expect. Around here I can't use top end speed 25mph over the limit they can impound car, so really top of 2nd gear can get my car towed, takes the fun out of the turbo.

Skip the donuts it adds too much weight to the driver.

[freesaints]

Welcome to Austin. I've got a 1987 930 4 speed and when I did research early on, I came to the same conclusion. A slight in increase in power better fits the 4 speed (I have Andial intercooler, double billet K27 from TK, headers, exhaust). Although the 5 speed might initially be better with the 5 speed, once you beef up the hp, it quickly becomes a chore to shift that often. It seems the benefits of the 4 speed are 1) it allows you to increase power and still enjoy the drive and 2) opens up the available market for cars.

I've worked with a few of the local Porsche shops and can share my experiences with you.

I too put in an aftermarket AC unit and can you give you some of my experiences with that as well.

A meet up is easy to do, happy to share what I've learned in the last few years with my car, and give you a chance to check out the 4 speed, aftermarket AC, etc.

[GregB]

Originally Posted by 908/930

Not sure why I was thinking that first gear on the 5 speed was lower but I was wrong

Actually you are RIGHT. The gear itself IS lower (3.154 vs 2.25) but the R&P ratios are also different which cancels out much of that... (I just noticed a typo in my chart. the R&P for the 5-speed should be 3.44 not 3.154 so I'll need to fix that and post up the corrected info)

Originally Posted by 908/930

Skip the donuts it adds too much weight to the driver.

Not a chance! I've got an 8-year old son who loves making weekend donut runs, and this will be the perfect chance for him to experience manual-transmission, air-cooled cars and maybe he will have the same love affair with them, that I've always had.

Originally Posted by freesaints

Welcome to Austin. I've got a 1987 930 4 speed and when I did research early on, I came to the same conclusion. A slight in increase in power better fits the 4 speed (I have Andial intercooler, double billet K27 from TK, headers, exhaust). Although the 5 speed might initially be better with the 5 speed, once you beef up the hp, it quickly becomes a chore to shift that often. It seems the benefits of the 4 speed are 1) it allows you to increase power and still enjoy the drive and 2) opens up the available market for cars.

I've worked with a few of the local Porsche shops and can share my experiences with you.

I too put in an aftermarket AC unit and can you give you some of my experiences with that as well.

A meet up is easy to do, happy to share what I've learned in the last few years with my car, and give you a chance to check out the 4 speed, aftermarket AC, etc.

Super generous offer! Thank you! With the Christmas / New Years holidays coming up I'll finally have a bit of extra time on my hands and would love to meet up if you had time as well... very cool, indeed.


-G

[freesaints]

Of course, just send me a PM and we can figure something out. And if my 4 and 6 year old boys' love affair with air cooled Porsches and going fast are any indication, I have no doubt that your son will love it as well.

[Mocker]

Why would anyone prefer a 4-speed to a 5-speed? That really makes no sense to me. Far easier to keep the car in the sweet spot of the rev range at most any speed with five gears.

Now if we're talking about a 6- vs 7-speed, you could make a case that at some point there are diminishing returns. But I'll take the 5 over the 4 any day.

[RarlyL8]

Why would anyone prefer a 4-speed to a 5-speed?

There are many driving styles and power levels for the 930.
If your style is twisty mountain roads and your engine is stock to mildly modified a 5spd fits this application better than a 4spd. If your style is high HP high speed then a 4spd might be a better choice. I've done both styles and the trans and gearing are so important to how the package comes together and works with the way the car is used. Custom gearing is another story, I'm just talking about stock geared 915, G50 or 4spd.

[cbwell]

Welcome to Austin. I have an ‘86 930 with a 5-speed conversion (same G50/50 as in ‘89). Personally, I like the 5-speed much better, the 4-speed felt like a was driving a bus. But, it’s all personal taste and style. If you ever want to check it out let me know (I’m in ATX)

[voitureltd]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

There are many driving styles and power levels for the 930.
If your style is twisty mountain roads and your engine is stock to mildly modified a 5spd fits this application better than a 4spd. If your style is high HP high speed then a 4spd might be a better choice.

^^^^^ Yep, this has been my experience except when you get it over 600 + HP, then either one is great, especially when @ around 45 degrees.

[David]

I always thought I wanted a 5 speed or closer gears in my 4 speed but the more time I spend on twisty back roads west of Austin, the more I like the stock 4 speed gearing. While the 911's are busy shifting gears, I just leave it in 3rd gear. And considering these old Porsches don't shift like the new ones, it's kind of nice not shifting much.