Finding a way to turbo my 3.2
 

Hey whats up guys I'm new to this website. I finally got my 1988 911 3.2 out of the garage after its been there for almost 5 years. I've been driving it alot now, pretty much as a daily driver now. I've gotten to love these Porsche 911 very much. Don't get me wrong the 3.2 motor is fast but i recently drove my friends 930 turbo with many mods to it, and wow was it fast. I wanna find a way to turbo my 3.2 safely. Not looking to push any crazy numbers on the dyno just a lil more power out of her and enough to not effect the motor in anyway. The only thing is I'm not sure on if this is possible and if it is what route should i take on doing this and what psi would be safe for this motor. Thanks

It is possible!
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/
The link is down at the moment but I'm sure it will be back up again soon.

ya, it's possible

oh, 4 5 6 and 7 bar. I like 6, I think thats 8 and half or so psi

Lots of guys here with 3.2 turbos. I would think the Motronic would be easier than the CIS route I took. My 3.0 with the turbo will dust the 3.2 n/a Carreras at the track. You won't get 930 power, but your increase will be substantial and quite noticeable.
Pat

Do you mean .4 .5. 6 and .7 bar??? 6 bar of boost is ALOT of boost! About 90psi :D

of course

Thanks guys for the help. I'll just have to get some money together and start on my project. If anyone know of any other site that I can look at or kits or w/e please let me know. Thank you

I think you could get some really nice power on a 3.2 if you did something like a set of k-24s or if you want a single somthing like a k-28 or k-29. The reason a recommend these turbos because you can't run big boost, but if you run a bigger turbo(s) at low boost (4-5 Psi) you could get nice power and hopefully reliability. And the bigger turbos wont have too much of a problem spooling because the engine has higher compression than the 930s do, so the N/A power will carry you untill boost + the greater exhaust-gas-expansion will spin the turbos quicker.

Thanks for the turbo options but the question is how would i go upon doing this and how much am i looking to spend on this?

Welcome. Kits are available at a couple of vendors.

You have to rebuild your motor and get an intercooler. Who is your builder/machinist? Have you spoken to him about his recomendations/estimate?

You can expect your prices to be 10k to 50k depending on your builder's choice of parts and how many hours labor he charges you.

We can refer you to very good builders/machinists in your area, and to vendors if you are going to do it yourself. Online you can start at goingsuperfast.com and progress to imagineauto.com

Have you thought about a budget?

Good luck and have fun!

Oh your going to blow a little coin...
You could piece together some manifolds or just buy a B&B set for between 500$ - 2000$
Turbo(s) for about 500$ to 1500$
Intercooler nice one from bell intercoolers about a grand give or take(give) 300$ depending on what you ask for- or a Goingsuperfast I/c for under 1000$ that will get the job done
Misc. plumbing piping about 500 depending on how good you are with minor fab work.
Im not sure what route you would want to go for tuning, I think Protomotive sells a computer upgrade for your stock motronics from blow through mass air to full pressure sensing. I think the blow through programing costs somewhere in the 2 grand range, but I am unsure since its been so long since I inquired about the cost.
All of these prices are high estimate/approximates. You could probley do better if you were more patient than I in finding your parts and not opperating on a timeline.

Breyes, I think he could get away with low boost on that motor without low comp. pistons or a set of rods. If he wants to do a low boost set up for now and then go crazy someday thats cool.
4-5 psi of properly tuned boost never killed anyone.
Don't scare the poor guy...

Well, a street only car doesn't need an intercooler. Track car is a different animal altogether, although I have seen non-intercooled Promotive installs at the track. If you run a relatively small pressure ratio (ie 5 PSI or so), you don't need a rebuild on the engine (providing it is in good condition to start with). If your engine is not in good condition, then you are starting to look at serious money...rebuild plus turbo...at which point you may want to consider 3.6 swap instead of a turbo. The stock Motronic pistons will be OK. You can probably find some used plumbing and maybe a decent Garrett turbo on the cheap if you keep your eyes open for it...lots of guys start out with turbo projects and give up after awhile.

It is a lot of work, and a lot of headaches, and there are about fifty things which will not go well and take up a lot of time. The end result will be maybe in the 250RWHP range, so you will essentially end up with peak 3.6 HP without the broad 3.6 torque curve.

Pat

Steve Timmins at instant-g.com will put a 3.6 engine in your car for about $10-14 grand. He will go through the engine and make sure it is running good and strong and he will do the whole conversion.

You will be more happy with that then a low boost turbo, and you can sell your engine. You can get close to 300 hp that way.

Go for it and thank me later. LOL.

If you have the latest issue of Excellence magazine, Timmins did the blue iroc car.

you guys make it sound like it's a big huge headache? and that it's thousands upon thousands of dollars, I don't get it.

I too think 4-5 lbs of boost on a stock motor will be fine as long as it's tuned conservatively and intercooled. One said intercooling on a street motor is not necessary but some intercooling is better than none especially if you're running a CR above 8.5:1. It wouldn't take anything but a bad batch of gas to promote knock and the intercooler at the very least gives you a small cushion with the cooler air charge.

Thats kind of what I was thinking. If you are do it yourselfer you can do it for about 5 g's total about what you figure jerry?

From what I've read and been told, stock 930 power is achieved with only .5bar on a 3.2.

I have been planning my turbo 3.2 for about 6 months and the first stage is going to be very simple and cheap, about $3500. I'm only starting off with .5bar with the following parts.

• 930 J-pipe (sourced for $150US and bolts straight onto Existing heat exchangers)
• 930 Muffler ($250US 2nd hand)
• Garrett Gt30R Turbo and oil plumbing ($1400US)
• Protomotive Turbo Chip and Fuel Pressure Regulator ($700US)
• Charge pipe Fabricated (about $300)
• Tial Wastegate ($500)
• Blow off Valve ($200)
Total $3500

I'm sure there will be odds and ends I will need along the way such as welding different flanges on the jpipe and muffler but nothing too major.

I can't take praise for the design of this simple kit, Merv (WydRyd) divised it.

I just want to get it up and running as simply as possible then I can slowly upgrade to an intercooler, headers, MAP, more boost etc.

I don't speak from experience or from reading posts about this as I have no interest in doing this (my 3.2 has a 915). But common sense tells me this is too much boost pressure without an IC or race gas or water injection.
I may be wrong, I hope others that do actually know will comment for you. Don't want anyone to blow their engine up.

How much boost are you saying is too much?

The general consensus from the experienced is .7bar max which according to protomotive with headers will get you 400hp. Sounds a little ambitious but a member of the forum (wydryd) installed that very kit and acheived those numbers on a dyno, he also drove it to work everyday for a long time without any problems.

I have been planning my turbo 3.2 for about 6 months and the first stage is going to be very simple and cheap, about $3500. I'm only starting off with .5bar with the following parts.

• 930 J-pipe (sourced for $150US and bolts straight onto Existing heat exchangers)
• 930 Muffler ($250US 2nd hand)
• Garrett Gt30R Turbo and oil plumbing ($1400US)
• Protomotive Turbo Chip and Fuel Pressure Regulator ($700US)
• Charge pipe Fabricated (about $300)
• Tial Wastegate ($500)
• Blow off Valve ($200)

Ben and Jerry can speak from experience on this regarding the 3.2 turbo. Mine is a bit different as it is a CIS SC, and the route I took is basically antique technology (period correct !!) I would imagine a 3.2 would be an easier go simply because of the fuel delivery options with an electronic system. Fuel delivery is the key to a turbo conversion. My first go at it, I couldn't get enough fuel enrichment. I have enough now, but that was worth $1000 to get it right.

I also know exactly how much power is made, as mine has been on a dyno. I haven't seen anyone else's N/A to turbo conversion dyno sheets, so I have no basis for comparison. I do know that I was making 251 RWHP at essentially 6 PSI, and that was still not sorted as well as it can be, and I make power all the way to redline. I think I have at least another 20-30 HP lying on the table. I have heard of dyno results from a 3.2 with a full Promotive install, custom intercooler...whatever Stage Something Promotive calls it. The car is making 300 RWHP, but it cost $10 large to do it (on an existing engine). If you just want to kick up the power a bit, you can likely do it for maybe $3k or so, if you're handy.

Pat

Sounds great Pat, please post some pic of your install.

I dont understand what that means Nathan?!!

FWIW, as a point of reference regarding "to much" boost, the kid across the street makes 780 RWHP at 28 PSI boost on his Acura...that's where his clutch slips. He is capable of 42 PSI. I hope the shrapnel doesn't hit our house.

Guys, please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

Spence,
The stock 930 has 7:1CR the 911 3.2 has 9:1 or maybe more.
The stock 930 boosts at .7bar you are saying you will run to .5bar.
The stock 930 has an IC you are not going to fit one.
The stock 930 has the ignition timing setup for a boosted engine, you don't mention the ECU getting fed any boost signal so it can adjust timing. The ECU does have CHT which may help but I don't actually know that it does.

Patkeefe's use of 6psi sounds much more sensible to me than your 0.5bar. 6psi = 4.14bar.

Protomotive do seem to be a good company though and that is why I told you about them at the start of this thread.
Are they saying you can run just those parts you listed at 0.5bar on pump gas?

Don't want you to blow your engine up.

Pat, did you see a sheet somewhere? I ask because proto advertises 360 on a 3.2 stage one @.5 bar. And 400 intercooled @ .7 bar

Just get one of those Going super fast intercoolers and call it a day. They are cheap and verrrry efficiant. I 100% think you should run an I/C, between your compression, intake ports, induction system, and boost- you are going to make too much cylinder pressure not to have it cooled.

Deja vu, had this conversation somewhere else...

The numbers seem a little high for the boost to me, even given that EFI makes better power than CIS, but WydRyd would know, I guess, as he did it. Ben and Jerry (heh, that's unfortunate) must have a lot of knowledge here too.

I always wondered how much Promotive geared their kits towards RoW - as opposed to US - spec cars.

Aren't the RoW 3.2's 10.3:1 instead of 9.5:1? These C/R numbers just seem too high to run significant boost to me. Maybe it'll work on the street for a short while...

If you can run 10.3:1 @ .7 bar, well, wow.

How? What makes this work and safe? EFI? The fuel pressure regulator? The same question pretty much applies to 9.5:1 @ .7 bar, although this isn't quite as worrying a prospect...

their advertised is 9.5 to 1 and a drop to 8.8 to 1 for .85 bar boost. for 3.2's

I guess this is their stage 2. which they do a "top end" don't know what that implies. Probably P&C from 930, and a clutch disk.

I don't know? maybe it's the chip and the rising rate reg. But I went with bell's FMU instead of protomotives altered stock unit.
whether it's 350 or 390 or 310, It's just plain cool.

One thing though, it doesn't feel fast anymore. Anyone choosing to go down this road, be aware, it never ends.

switch to map
lower compression
boost to 1.1
weld in reinforcements for the coil overs
turbo/header/muffler/crossover swap

OR
convince your neighbor to sell his 750 protomotive 996 TT
it's maddening, I just spillled most of the tank oil on the floor to, never done that before.
I'm waiting on some cat litter to help me out

Well, that makes a lot more sense. So you're fine for Stage 1 with a stock US car and low boost.

Muahahahahahaha! Sorry, that was just begging for melodramatic villian laughter. :)

Well, at least we all have an idea of what we'd spend a lottery win on instead of wasting it...

Check out the link I posted at the start to Protomotive.

Maybe I am wrong about timing... I just thought that when the boost comes on the AFM will know in relation to RPM and possibly retard the timing. Would I want to bet my $10,000 engine on it? No way...

Nathan, I understand and appreciate your concerns.

My car has the lower 'US' compression, we got the US cars after 85/86 I think, the fuel pressure regulator and chip are suppose to sort out fueling, in all honesty I think it's a big ask too but I trust merv as he has run it and knows what he's doing. I plan to use a MAP2ECU once it's all running which is a piggy back MAP unit.

Jerry:
The guy who built the Promotive I referenced saw my engine one evening, by chance, and commented on my turbo setup, as though mine were some POS and only a Promotive was the way to go. I ran on the track with this particular car before it had intercooling, and the Stage whatever upgrade, back when I still had 161 RWHP. It is a Carrera, and I haven't seen it on the track this year. The comment was that the engine was making low 300 HP, IIRC. If Promotive advertises 400 from this setup, they are a bit short on their estimates. If I dropped $10g on my engine, I could make 500 HP.

And, you're right, it never ends. My engine is out at the moment, getting fitted with a SS Webb airbox...I blew the plastic one up a few weks ago. So, while I'm in there, I'm rewiring the engine, and rebuilding the distributor.

Lastly, the center of the turbo universe is: what is the dynamic compression ratio? Low static CR and big boost, or high static CR, and low boost? What is the best compromise for the use of the car, and what can you live with for driveability? I calculated my BMEP one day, and I have BMEP around 205 or so, which is pretty good. How much charge can you pack into the cylinder, and how well can you burn it? HP is a function of CR.

Stage 1 which is the non intercooled setup with headers is said to make around 340 at the crank, with an intercooler and .7bar 400 is said to be achieved. It does sound like a hell of a lot but as I said this is what merv started out with and he did get numbers on the dyno to back up protomotive's claims. I'll ask him for more info, his thread is somewhere on this forum.

I have head from many people that the carrera engine does respond surprisingly well to boost and over here, back in the day, people where importing wide bodied carreras and turboing them to race over buying 930s as they had efi and a 5 speed. This is also meaned in the 101 projects book.

I don't see fuelling being an issue, infact it should be much better than any CIS.

It is the timing I can't see working. How does the 3.2 DME pull timing when on boost. The 3.2 DME has no map sensor. Maybe the timing is already pulled back.
I know the stock 930 timing is far from optimal off boost. This is where the drivability improvement comes from when people go with a aftermarket DME setup.

quote

the 3.2 chips have a 7200 rpm rev-limit.
If it's a Stage 1 chip, the timing should be around 14deg at WOT
across peak torque, then back up to around 17deg.
idle timing should be 3-4deg btdc like stock.

I wish you luck pat.
For me, I'm done except for a dyno run, and more or less fuel with a turn of the knob.
Until I save enough for a big rebuild. I'm hoping next year sometime

Well my injectors (30#) are maxed and they max at 300 hp (dutycycle maxes out running 3bar fuel pressure) My car is a blast I would guess about close to pats at the wheels. The nice thing with mine is that I need either bigger injectors or RRFPR to achieve some more HP. Mine runs .4 bar boost and I run twin plug with an intercooler. and mine is 3.2 short stroke built from a 81 sc engine. The pistons are 98mm JE's 8.5-1. I have full boost at 2700 rpm. You should check out my rebuild thread and my turbo charging thread. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1194870837.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/323599-my-3-2-ss-twin-plug-turbo-motor.html


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1194870932.jpg

there's the other thing I don't understand, how the hell do carrera injectors stand the .7 bar that Todd talks about? @400 or 390 HP.. how is that possible?
they don't swap injectors until the go up to .85 bar

Rising rate fuel pressure regulator makes the injectors work at a lower duty cycle so they can support more hp as they have more pressure in my understanding. Tim T is pretty sharp on this maybe he will chime in

I thought 930 fprs were rising rate

thats something I never thought of.
this means, for example, your car has a regular fpr?

shows you how much I know