Idiots guide to installing a cheap EMS such as the MSII aka MS2 or Megasquirt2
 

Well, as the title suggests I am indeed an idiot and would like to know how I could install a MSII to my 930.

I am aware that the crank sensors seem to fail often compared to say the one used by my 3.2 carrera.

So, how can the MS be triggered without a pesky crank sensor?

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/

Here is a quote from Goran.

Ok, for simplicity I would like to know how I could have the dizzy trigger the MS and distribute the spark? May as well keep my current coil too.

TIA

my ms1 is triggered from the msd box which is driven from my dizzy. don't remember what color wire but I think it was the blue wire in the harness

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm

More info about EDIS:

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm

Thanks Goran, I've read it a couple of times, I think I'm getting it.

I need to look inside a dizzy so I can see how it might be done properly without using a crank sensor.
However, I don't like the idea of wasted spark and am thinking the right way to do this is with a crank sensor and a cam sensor...
I suppose it's no big deal to carry a spare sensor and install it so it's easy to change with simple tools...
As for failure of the cam sensor would the ecu just revert back to waste spark itself? Or could it only be done with having a laptop with me?

I've been reading up on the MSII and I noted that both the ignition and fuel tables are only 12x12.

Is this average for an EMS? Seems low to me, but I'm an idiot :)

Why?

Waste spark is just a free spark.... does no harm...

Having a cam angle sensor gets you a more accurate idea where the engine is in its cycle. Dont know if there are any systems out there that continue to run well when one of the position sensors fail...

BTW we have use waste fire on our 935 clone... way over 800hp and starts and idles easily.

Thanks Tim for your input. I've watched that video you posted on these forums and that car sounds awesome when it's opened up!

Wasted spark - Yeah, I know the F1 teams use it and they rev to over double what I want my 930 to ever see. BUT. I just don't like the thought of the coil getting only half the time it could have to charge.

If I kept my current coil would that be OK to run in wasted spark mode with single plug?

But you like the idea of single coil/dizzy getting 1/3:rd of time of wastespark coil to charge?? Liking or not, wastespark works and works well. It also eliminates dizzy and cam sensor.

You cannot run wasted spark with single coil/distributor.

Nathan, I agree with Goran and TimT on the wasted spark issue. I'd be more concerned with sticking to a CDI ignition system of some sort. In your case, if you're still single plug, the cost for one of the more "high-end" systems from M&W is much better than if you were/are twin-plug. I wanted to run M&W CDI boxes with my new JB racing dizzy, but the money just wasn't there, so I went with MSD.

Just for thought....... Accel DFI sells a billet dizzy that provides a cam AND ignition signal in one dizzy. They use hall effect triggers, and if you ever decide to go twin plug JB has the program to convert the DFI dizzy to accept their 12 pin car and rotor. I think the dizzy from Accel is around $500. This would give you the ability to run full sequential. And if you ever wanted to go wasted spark or coil on plug the cap could be replaced with a billet cover and be used just for the triggers, that way you would have both signals still coming from one location.

Also DFI makes a digital CDI ignition module called the 300+. It is half the size of an MSD box and uses half the current but puts out more voltage. They also have built in rev control if anyone is interested, but on a EFI car the ECU controls the timing, therefore the built in rev control would be set to off. I run two of these with my DFI dizzy that has the JB 12 pin conversion.

EXCELLENT info, GJF!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215003973.jpg
Here is a pic of the dizzy

not to turn this into an ignition only thread, here are pictures of the JBR dizzy that utilzes external triggers:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215005342.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215005355.jpg

http://www.jbracing.com/eng_porsche.php

Ignore the knock sensor module, still working on that. The rest should be good.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215010392.jpg

Hell yeah Noah! That's the way to go!

I bet 2 x EDIS-6 + MSII combo cost less than a single 12-wire dizzy cap ;)

P.S. How are you multiplexing the twin plug EDIS? You probably know this, but in case you don't:
When using dual six coil twin-plug ignition, HT-leads should be multiplexed so that each coil fires one plug in cylinder that should fire and other in cylinder that is in exhaust phase.

Thus, there will be two coils with two outputs each, firing total of four plugs at once. Coils should be wired in such way that each coil fires into plugs sitting in different cylinders. This way, energy usage will be maximized in plug that needs it most: the one that should fire.

Yes it does cost much less.

You can pick up an EDIS module with it's associated harness and a crank wheel trigger sensor for $20 to $30 each. Used EDIS coil packs are about $5 to $25 each, a high performance coil pack from Accel is rough $80 new, but I don't know how much better they are than a stock spec coil pack.

A professionally assembled Mega Squirt with harness ready for splicing is about $250 to $300 used on *bay New assembled units are like $410, and a kit to assemble it yourself is roughly $240 I think.

I am going to use a terminal block with an integrated relay board for all of the wiring myself.

I agree the wasted spark coils are by far the cheapest way to go. I already had my billet dizzy so I stayed with it. Possibly I will end up going to COP's at a later date. If you have nothing to start and need to decide what to do then I'd go with wasted spark use a hall effect crank trigger and a Ford hall effect cam sensor along with the adapter to mount it to the cam tower. This would definetly the cheapest. If you want to step it up a notch COP's which would not require sparkplug wires. But you would need valve covers to mount the COP's. Hargett Percision Products makes billet valve covers that mounts Ford COP's.

Hi,
Very sweet, what Program did you use to diagram this out with?

Wasted spark ain't a bad thing. I guess you can use the distributor and have full control over ignition timing, ehhh? I can tell you that I lost a cam sensor and it caused my car to go full lean everytime we hit 4000 RPM. It was hell identifying the problem. The sensor didn't quit, it just quit working evertime it hit 4000 RPM. It may have been RFI/EMI noise. It had been fine during the first 60 or so hours of tuning and running. I now am in "Batch Fire" mode and am not certain I am going to screw with it again. I gotta a feeling this may have happened to DonE possibly. Personally I wouldn't be looking for a distrbutor though.

My problem was me. I had a poorly crimped 12v supply and it finally failed. Fortunately, the LINK tells me which trigger has an error so I was able to tell what was going on immediately.

For what its worth, if I had to do it all again, I probably would have saved a bit more money and gone with some sort of CDI ignition. I currently use wasted spark and it works well, but I think I could get better drivability and torque with CDI. To improve idle and high RPM drivability, I reduced the gap on my plugs from .028 to .023. It smoothed my idle out but I haven't tried the high rpm yet. It's a good thing I have dual plug with this ignition system.

Nathan,
If you haven't found it yet, here's a pretty good thread on a dual plugged MegaSquirt II installation with some pictures on sensor installation, some sample fuel and ignition maps and lots of Q&A from folks on the forum. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/279322-megasquirt-setup-930-dual-plug-edis.html

Noah, great work on the illustration - that will help a lot of folks.

I've been running MSII for a couple of years and have been very happy with it. Good luck!

Yeah, I agree! That was a pretty impressive post, from Noah!!! Being that I'm running so well on my modified CIS system, I'm a long way off from an EFI conversion, but stranger things have happened...

Thanks Guys!

I have to admit, I forgot to search the 911 forum...

Belive it or not, MSpaint. Paint is great for doing simple little diagrams for your own notes. I can make them with cad or ProE but paint does a great job for this and it's easy to use.

Thanks. Just so everyone knows Mike (mppickett) was the first to post the EDIS twin plug diagram, I just incorporated it into the complete diagram I previously posted.

The knock sensing module I am still working with, I think it should be fine but I might need to add a fuse on the +12V power line off the main relay. Also, there is a chance that I will have to add some sort of signal conditioner to dampen out noise that is from normal operations. I see no reason why we can not have knock sensing on our engines.

Thanks, I try to be of some help. I guess it is in return for some of the overly inquisitive post I make from time to time.

+1, nice work Noah.

Not if you're cheap and use the Burn Bros distributor conversion that takes the E-type cap... :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/173248-twin-plug-goodness-look-what-i-made-weekend.html