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A fellow Pelacanite
 
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Idiots guide to installing a cheap EMS such as the MSII aka MS2 or Megasquirt2

Well, as the title suggests I am indeed an idiot and would like to know how I could install a MSII to my 930.

I am aware that the crank sensors seem to fail often compared to say the one used by my 3.2 carrera.

So, how can the MS be triggered without a pesky crank sensor?

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 07-01-2008 at 01:13 PM..
Old 06-28-2008, 03:24 AM
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Here is a quote from Goran.
Quote:
You can run distibutorless ignition in two ways (actually three):

1. You use crank and cam position sensor and let EFI trigger each plug when it should..
2. You use crank sensor only and fire the plugs twice as often instead. Crank sensor doesn't know OD is in exchaust or compression phase, thus it needs to fire on every OD.
3. (This one is high-end) You use crank sensor only, fire plugs twice as often during cranking, let EFI detect ignition phase by ion-sensing and then kill unneeded phase.


MSII can be configured to use wastefire concept described above in case 1 to deliver completly distributorless ignition and fueling.

It can also be configured to work with ordinary dizzy, by recieving signal from distributor pickup and then triggering single coil.

So it's up to you.

Want to keep dizzy and coil? No problem, remove CDI box, hook the pickup into MSII, let it feed the coil and voilá, you got fully programmable ignition (and fueling, if you install injectors as well).

Want to go coilpack distributorless ignition? No problem, you remove dizzy, CDI and everything else that has with ignition to do. You let MSII feed 6-cylinder Ford EDIS wastefire coilpack.

Want distibutorless coilpack and twin plug? No problem. Buy extra Ford EDIS, connect module inputs in parallel and multiplex cables for wastefire twin-plug application.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-28-2008, 03:33 AM
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Ok, for simplicity I would like to know how I could have the dizzy trigger the MS and distribute the spark? May as well keep my current coil too.

TIA
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-28-2008, 03:37 AM
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my ms1 is triggered from the msd box which is driven from my dizzy. don't remember what color wire but I think it was the blue wire in the harness
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
MegaSquirt-IITM controllers can be triggered from the negative terminal of the coil, just like MS-I, as long as MS-IITM is not being used to control the ignition timing. However, if you are controlling the ignition timing, then the tach signal must be fixed with respect to the crank position (not vary with the advance timing like the coil signal).
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:22 AM
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More info about EDIS:

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:24 AM
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Thanks Goran, I've read it a couple of times, I think I'm getting it.

I need to look inside a dizzy so I can see how it might be done properly without using a crank sensor.
However, I don't like the idea of wasted spark and am thinking the right way to do this is with a crank sensor and a cam sensor...
I suppose it's no big deal to carry a spare sensor and install it so it's easy to change with simple tools...
As for failure of the cam sensor would the ecu just revert back to waste spark itself? Or could it only be done with having a laptop with me?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 06-29-2008 at 12:40 PM..
Old 06-29-2008, 12:37 PM
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I've been reading up on the MSII and I noted that both the ignition and fuel tables are only 12x12.

Is this average for an EMS? Seems low to me, but I'm an idiot
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 07-01-2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
I don't like the idea of wasted spark
Why?

Waste spark is just a free spark.... does no harm...

Having a cam angle sensor gets you a more accurate idea where the engine is in its cycle. Dont know if there are any systems out there that continue to run well when one of the position sensors fail...

BTW we have use waste fire on our 935 clone... way over 800hp and starts and idles easily.
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:26 PM
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Thanks Tim for your input. I've watched that video you posted on these forums and that car sounds awesome when it's opened up!

Wasted spark - Yeah, I know the F1 teams use it and they rev to over double what I want my 930 to ever see. BUT. I just don't like the thought of the coil getting only half the time it could have to charge.

If I kept my current coil would that be OK to run in wasted spark mode with single plug?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 07-01-2008, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
I just don't like the thought of the coil getting only half the time it could have to charge.
But you like the idea of single coil/dizzy getting 1/3:rd of time of wastespark coil to charge?? Liking or not, wastespark works and works well. It also eliminates dizzy and cam sensor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
If I kept my current coil would that be OK to run in wasted spark mode with single plug?
You cannot run wasted spark with single coil/distributor.
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:47 PM
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Nathan, I agree with Goran and TimT on the wasted spark issue. I'd be more concerned with sticking to a CDI ignition system of some sort. In your case, if you're still single plug, the cost for one of the more "high-end" systems from M&W is much better than if you were/are twin-plug. I wanted to run M&W CDI boxes with my new JB racing dizzy, but the money just wasn't there, so I went with MSD.
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:39 AM
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Just for thought....... Accel DFI sells a billet dizzy that provides a cam AND ignition signal in one dizzy. They use hall effect triggers, and if you ever decide to go twin plug JB has the program to convert the DFI dizzy to accept their 12 pin car and rotor. I think the dizzy from Accel is around $500. This would give you the ability to run full sequential. And if you ever wanted to go wasted spark or coil on plug the cap could be replaced with a billet cover and be used just for the triggers, that way you would have both signals still coming from one location.
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:50 AM
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Also DFI makes a digital CDI ignition module called the 300+. It is half the size of an MSD box and uses half the current but puts out more voltage. They also have built in rev control if anyone is interested, but on a EFI car the ECU controls the timing, therefore the built in rev control would be set to off. I run two of these with my DFI dizzy that has the JB 12 pin conversion.
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87 911 Carrera platform
Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 07-02-2008, 04:57 AM
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EXCELLENT info, GJF!
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:58 AM
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Here is a pic of the dizzy
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:06 AM
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not to turn this into an ignition only thread, here are pictures of the JBR dizzy that utilzes external triggers:



http://www.jbracing.com/eng_porsche.php
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"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 07-02-2008, 05:29 AM
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Ignore the knock sensor module, still working on that. The rest should be good.

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Old 07-02-2008, 06:53 AM
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Hell yeah Noah! That's the way to go!

I bet 2 x EDIS-6 + MSII combo cost less than a single 12-wire dizzy cap

P.S. How are you multiplexing the twin plug EDIS? You probably know this, but in case you don't:
When using dual six coil twin-plug ignition, HT-leads should be multiplexed so that each coil fires one plug in cylinder that should fire and other in cylinder that is in exhaust phase.

Thus, there will be two coils with two outputs each, firing total of four plugs at once. Coils should be wired in such way that each coil fires into plugs sitting in different cylinders. This way, energy usage will be maximized in plug that needs it most: the one that should fire.
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Last edited by beepbeep; 07-02-2008 at 07:03 AM..
Old 07-02-2008, 06:58 AM
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Yes it does cost much less.

You can pick up an EDIS module with it's associated harness and a crank wheel trigger sensor for $20 to $30 each. Used EDIS coil packs are about $5 to $25 each, a high performance coil pack from Accel is rough $80 new, but I don't know how much better they are than a stock spec coil pack.

A professionally assembled Mega Squirt with harness ready for splicing is about $250 to $300 used on *bay New assembled units are like $410, and a kit to assemble it yourself is roughly $240 I think.

I am going to use a terminal block with an integrated relay board for all of the wiring myself.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:08 AM
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