Dimension of the 993TT intercooler cores?
 

Does anyone know off the top of their heads what the dimensions of the intercooler cores are in the 993TT IC?

Here's a pic:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1234790344.jpg

looks like maybe twin 10X11 cores or possibly 11X12s

JBL930 from the UK has fitted 993tt engine in his 930 with these intercoolers,here is a link to the thread over in rennlist,even though not stated is the dimensions,,the pictures may give you some guide to the actual size of them inside a 911/930 engine bay!

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/911-turbo-930-forum/401863-anyone-with-a-993tt-engine-in-a-930-a-5.html

that twin conversion looks bad@ss-

how do these compare to aftermarket coolers for a tt application?

The OEM cores are too thin for my liking. 4" thick would be better.

12" x 10" x 4" for each core would be nicer ;)

The 993 intercooler is actually very good up to about 550bhp, the thicker FVD/Cargraphic style coolers have been proven to be worse, tested by RS Tuning on their engine dyno the stock intercooler is better.
The only proven intercoolers are ones offered with Secan cores, the ones from RS Tuning are around $30k, insane money. Surface area is the key with intercoolers, not thickness, and then the core manufacturer is key, Marston are pretty good i believe but Secan are the main players. You will be paying aerospace money though as that is where they come from.


Cheers for the compliment Kris :)

Jonathan, thanks for "tuning" in. Been reading your thread over on Rennlist! Your car is a beast! I love it!

I'm doing a TT conversion on my motor very soon and am potentially going with a pair of K16/16G's... should be a fun ride once done :cool:

Hi James, i've been reading your threads too, you've certainly got your hands full. There is plenty of data with regards to 993 intercoolers over on Rennlist, this is a good thread to start http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=428101&referrerid=40678

Certainly do, but in a good way :cool:

Absolutely, it's a lot of fun doing something unique, it just requires deep pockets and LOTS of patience. Your car will be nuts when it's done, i wish you all the best with it, if i can be of any help feel free to ask. I don't do the work myself though so my knowledge is limited ;)

Thanks, Jonathan. I'll try and do most of the bolt on stuff myself... I'll just get the exhaust fabrication done by a good fabricator ;)

2 1/2 x 10 1/2 x 10 1/2

Thanks :cool:

No worries, that car is nasty and if I were to ever say anything negative it would be out of sheer jealousy.

How nice is it to just turn a key, and have that much power with no drama, just a smooth running, barely stressed engine? I wish

Here in the states (Im not sure how they price those motors over there) they cost approximately 1 arm + 1 leg or $20K+. I have always wanted one, but could never afford one. Sorry to hijack

James- would you be opposed to water to air inter cooling? I got a friend who just got a nasty one done to his car.
And if not water to air, how about twin 4"x10"x10" spearco cores?

Hey mate... I'm not a real fan of water to air intercooling in these cars. I prefer to keep it simple and I'm on a tight budget too ;)

If you look at my other "teaser" thread, I've posted pics of the TT intercooler I'll be using temporarily (borrowed). If it works out to be OK, I'll probably get one similar made up, but with smoother flowing end tanks.

Kris, yes they are not cheap here either, but looking at the big picture it's no more expensive than modding the hell out of your 3.3, and there are so many bolt on packages to get good power, plus there are so many fail safes built in, it just made sense to me.
If i had the chance to start over i would buy a non-sunroof 964 C2, ABS and coil overs in place, also no problem fitting a G50 or even a 6 speed box. The engine is a straight bolt in that chassis, it's slippery and light and would make one hell of a car, hindsight is a wonderful thing :)


James, sorry for buggering your thread. I would bet you that the intercooler you have will be less efficient than a stock 993tt one, people like RS Tuning in Germany have shelves full of intercoolers that didn't make the grade, it's not all about just finding some big fat cores and welding some end tanks on, it takes massive develpoment budgets and real world testing to improve on something Porsche manufacture. Do you have any info on that unit? What cores were used? Has it been tested back to back with a stock cooler? What were the comparative pre and post air temps?

It just uses tube & fin cores, not bar and plate. It'll be sufficient enough for 1,0bar boost.

As I said, when I'm ready to have an aftermarket one designed as a permanent solution, I'll probably build a similar one to the Protomotive units. They are extremely efficient.

I've seen some of those Protomotive ones, they look great, just like the original Secan GT2 Evo ones from the race cars. I've no doubt the Protomotive ones will be top draw, do you have any idea what cores they use? Also, how much do Protomotive charge for one of those intercoolers? I'm just curious

Mine's a Protomotive unit, the cores aren't near as tight as the Secan cores though the end tanks are very nice and to my understanding support a nice flow. This cooler is rated to an ungodly high HP value. Last time I checked they go for about $2,500:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3450/...6a0c2428_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3502/...43111189_o.jpg

The proto coolers are no doubt great, i've also seen evidence that they perform too, how much are they? They look great too

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...IC_jpg_8X6.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...TTtail_8X6.jpg

Wouldn't you just love to get your hands on a Secan like this one though

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/Dsc00229.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/Dsc00233.jpg


This is one of the FVD style coolers that have been proven to be worse than stock, these really are a complete waste of money

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...l930/int6b.jpg

I tried one for size on mine before i did some research, it didn't fit under my stock tail anyway so i didn't buy it, thank god....

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...oleroncar1.jpg

YES I want one of those Secan units but $30k?!?!?!?! Even I say that's a bit much - granted the cores are worth it, but I can't justify it for a power increase. Maybe if I was looking for over 1,000 hp...

I know the protomotive units are good to 900 or so hp - but the tightness and overall quality of the secan units make them stuff of legends :)

[QUOTE=JBL930;4492768] Kris, yes they are not cheap here either, but looking at the big picture it's no more expensive than modding the hell out of your 3.3. If i had the chance to start over i would buy a non-sunroof 964 C2, ABS and coil overs in place, also no problem fitting a G50 or even a 6 speed box. .....
The engine is a straight bolt in that chassis, it's slippery and light and would make one hell of a car, hindsight is a wonderful thing :)
[QUOTE]

Exactomundo on the cost of the 3.3- that is why I have been preaching the idea of starting out with an N/A 3.6 motor with: Stock TT pistons/cyls, rods, head studs, and done. In hind site I should have saved my money and gone up to one of the scrapper thieves and gave them $18K cash and take home my TT motor. The 964 would have made your life easier, but there is already a man in your country that has one of those swaps- what fun would that be? I dont think I know of any other 930 with a 993TT motor- let alone whole oiling system.

Sorry for hijacking- Now can someone point out to me what the Secan core looks like for 30,000$??? I seriously dont know which one it is.

Your right, i know of no other 930 like mine on my island SmileWavy



Ok, here are some better shots of the race bred GT2 Evo Secan, these are like gold dust and cost more money than is sane. If you race your car though this would make the difference, it's all well and good having a powerful car that can do great 60-130mph times, hell mines one of them, but having 24hr flat out race staying power you have to go with a Secan

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...mespitter1.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...mespitter2.jpg

The Secan coolers that RS tuning fit to their road going 993tt's are a bit different, they look very similar to the stock coolers, but you can see in this picture that they have a very different core design, and the fins are really thin and tightly packed. The Secan is on the left, an after market one with Marston cores in center (Marston also do aerospace coolers although they are not as good as Secan), and a stock one on the far right.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...cooler_003.jpg

Close up shot of a Secan core

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...930/secan2.jpg

That Secan one looks the goods, but couldn't justify the cost :eek:

From what I've heard, the Proto units run about $3.5k. Still a bit too much for my wallet.

The Secan design looks relatively simple. I'm sure a good fabricator can make one at a fraction of the price, even with a high quality core! :cool:

Well that's where the cost is on the Secan unit - the core. But you could easily copy the end tanks and layout i'm sure.

Gab, with our luck the core will be $29,000- screw them for over charging. I am sure that since that came out there has been improvements in core design and I am sure that Spearco and Honeywell and Precision have simelar technology to Secan.

Exactly - plus it would do no good to copy much from that setup as the efficiency is so much greater - if one were to design and fab a custom cooler, the best thing would be to copy the end tank flow design off a unit with a non-secan core such as the protomotive etc. It would be slightly better than the bar and plate setups.

The layout of the "stock fitting" Secan in the pics above is exactly the same as stock, tested back to back on the day of that photo with the stock unit, both times run up to 180mph and the ambient and intake air temp logged, this was the result

The ambient temperature for the stock test was around 18DegC and the maximum stable full load intake temp was 54DegC

The ambient temperature for the Secan test was around 16DegC and the maximum stable full load intake temp was 33 DegC

That is a BIG difference, same car, same day, same fuel etc etc. When you think that the Motronic ECU pulls 4.5-degrees of timing and some boost at 54-degrees this is a drop of about 30hp. At 43.5-degrees the ECU pulls 2.25-degrees of timing, so you can see that getting the intake temp down, certainly with Motronic, makes a big diference. For you guys running other ECU's with fixed boost won't be as affected, but you are wearing your engine out quicker than you would with a better intercooler.

Just for reference guys, the stock looking Secan is around $16k, it's the big "front to back" style Secan that is $30k. Apparently the $30k unit will keep intake air temp within 20-degrees of ambient, the $16k unit will keep it within 25-degrees of ambient.



I've nicked a block of text from another forum for you to read, this is a chap called Jean who some of you will no doubt be familiar, he runs a 993tt race car out in Saudi, it's fitted with a Protomotive cooler, this is some info from him on Secan's and RS Tuning


"I would jst like to add briefly (intercooler discussions often turn sour!)..

One has to think that if there are some intercoolers that are being used by one of the most reputable builders in the world for their >640HP cars, having the most extensive racing palmares in the world, one must consider at least that they know something better than their lousy customer service.

I don't understand honestly why all this focus on the dimensions and design of end tanks and core and how they look etc? It is not about the dimensions (only) it is obviously about the quality of the core and how it is built , which materials, what size of fins, plates, tubes, bars, how they flow internally, what are the expansion rates of the components, what is the pressure drop resulting from its design, front to back or side to side etc...

I can tell you that Secan intercooler core design takes an immense amount of time and extremely expensive equipment, used by some of the best thermodynamics engineers in the world, who are nothing less than aerospace engineers (the same ones who build the european and US space shuttles, do components for Boeing, Airbus, Jet fighters, helicopters etc..), and as a matter of fact, this French aerospace company is a subsidiary of the Honeywell Aerospace group.

RS Tuning has a very special relationship with Secan and can get them to build these cores for them, the same that Posrche Motorsport used on all its GT racing cars. Try to get your hands on a Secan from the french factory, regardless of how much you are willing to pay, you can't.

For a quartermile run you might not need them, but for anything more than 1 lap on a track, or sustained high boost run (>1.3 Bar or so on the watercooled cars) expect to see your HP drop by 20-30% easily. If you run 1.5 Bar, your drops can be 40% easily on the race track.

There is a reason Spearco, Bell, Higgins and many others cost 1/10th or less of Secan, it is not the Euro, nor that they are thiefs, and I would assume that the best racing companies in the world (even Caddillac used them on their race cars!) know why they are paying so much for them.

I wanted to be brief, I apologize for not doing so. I have an aircooled engine, and spend A LOT of time analyzing the impact of heat on its performance, I have track datalogs that show it, intercooler efficiency is my biggest ennemy, you guys can get away with a bit less than me, but not at anything above 1.2-1.3 Bar...No can be!

The Alzen car was readjusted to run 0.9 Bar in endurance FWIW. Nurburgring 24 hours is in a few days, that is the real test."

So for those of us not running Secan cores the best we can do to ensure minimal performance drop off is make sure we find a way to keep massive airflow to the IC and keep heat away right?

So as long as there is sufficient cooling to the IC (say for an extreme here) plugging the IC inside the cabin in the rear seat area and ducting air to it and exit paths for the air to flow would hugely increase sustained performance?

:) No need for this IC discusssion to turn nasty but we can all learn a ton of things here. Jean is a GREAT guy and knows his stuff - his new GT2 car is awesome. He runs in the heat of the UAE so if anyone knows about heat impacts its that guy.

Gabe, i think anything you can do to get more air to go through the intercooler is possitive.
I know I went way off topic there, i just thought people who haven't done a great deal of research would learn something.

The main point i was trying to make is that a lot of stuff on the market is crap, i've shown how much better the best coolers in the world are over stock. What i would like to be able to do is complile the same amount of info on how much better the stock cooler is over the majority of crap there is for sale. The thing is there isn't a great deal of ready available info, people don't brag about failures. I would just say do your research before parting with your hard earned money, and if you can monitor your intake temps and compare them to ambient you can get a good idea what's going on.

+1 people get caught up in the marketing hype - and that's one thing I love about this board is that we don't have to worry about forum nanny's when telling the truth behind the products etc.

I plan on doing tons of testing with my new setup, we should encourage other to do the same. I'll start a new thread :)

Sorry to keep raining on the parade-- but-- 993 TT OEM intercooler is almost certainly far superior to anything you are likely to come up with.That is FULL STOP.Factually cheaper than custom to acquire and regardless of superficial measurement there is a lot more to intercoolers thn the obvious.
If you are going to TT set up the OEM 993 TT unit is an easy way to go.

I would use the 993TT OEM IC, however, it doesn't mate up to the Carerra Throttle Body easily :(

All you need to do is make a few slight modifications and the 993TT intercooler will bolt right on...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1235618730.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1235618745.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1235618767.jpg

Damn man- I didnt know you were doing all wheel drive with that car- I have only heard of one other 965 with awd- thats cool

Holy hell man nice motor! Do you have a build thread? If not post up on that beast!!!!! What output from the motor are you looking at?

SLIGHT modifications? :eek:

Looks like a whole new fabricated throttle body to me, which = $$$ I don't have :eek:

LOVE IT!!! I'm humbled :eek: Have you got this up and running yet? You helped me on my thread over on Rennlist some time ago, when i was trying to work out how to get my stock tail to fit. Where are you with it now, do tell SmileWavy

Gabe, you mentioned mounting the intercooler in the back of the cab etc earlier, thought you'd like this pic, i've send you pics of this UK 935 before but pics are always good :)

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...perOff_jpg.jpg