391.5rwhp & 348tq

[ZX3Tuning]

Some of you may remember this car from this thread more than a few months back: Source of rice located: VW guy goes 911
(I still get a kick out of that thread)


So back in April the engine decided to start running on 3 cylinders as we were trying to get it through emissions testing after getting the suspension all sorted.

fast forward to friday afternoon at Blitzkrieg in Vancouver...







sorry for the poor scanning!


i'll leave the back story for later... more pics to follow shortly as i'm struggling to get the car finished for Monday night!

Here's some of the details on what it's got.

OEM 3.3 engine rebuild with CIS
Stock 7:1 compression
stock heads
stock IM
Stock injector blocks,
964 Cams(by ColtCams)
Aasco Springs
Ported fuel head with big lines
B&B headers
IA K27 HF turbo
Modified PowerHaus exhaust
Tial 46mm Wastegate with 1bar spring
Kokeln intercooler
IA Intake
Unwired Tools Digital WUR
Air system removed

i think that's about it.

we think we either have a small boost leak from the Bosch diverter valve or we are running out of turbo as we couldn't make more than 12.5psi. So we are probably down 20ish rwhp at the very top end from where we could be.

All the work was done by Bernie Moller and myself at MB EuroMotors in Vancouver, Tuning was done by Bernie and Bob(forget his last name) at Blitzkrieg also in Vancouver.

At the same time we also rebuilt the transmission and replaced the Clutch with a 600+lb/ft KEP PP and KEP Organic Street Disc.

good numbers??

[DonE]

Wow - big numbers for a mostly stock motor. The HP curve is pretty steep at 6200 rpm - why did you shut it down?

[RarlyL8]

Those are really good numbers for stock heads.
The HF will support >400WHP so that should not be a problem.
Both torque and HP are coming in about a 1000rpm late.

[ZX3Tuning]

RarlyL8,
So i should be seeing peak Torque at 3800rpm not 4800? or should start making noticeable boost at 2500rpm vs and 3500?
Figured those numbers were right in line with the basically stock engine north of the exhaust ports??
Would a GT40 make that better or worse?


DonE
I wasn't at the dyno, so without me there they didn't want to run it to 7000rpm.
on the sheets from tuning it to starts to flatten out and drop off after there anyways.

[RarlyL8]

The HF should see 1.0bar by 3800rpm, or before.
Are you losing boost somewhere or was the intercooler hot?

Edit - what gear was this run made in? 83mph is 2nd gear range?

[willtel]

My motor is tired but our mods are similar and my car does seem to make (less) power a little lower. Do you think it could be the cams moving power higher into the rev range?



Powerhuas headers
B&B Exhaust
B&B Intercooler
K27 7200
1 BAR spring (I think)

I believe the rest is stock.

[willtel]

Originally Posted by ZX3Tuning

I wasn't at the dyno, so without me there they didn't want to run it to 7000rpm.
on the sheets from tuning it to starts to flatten out and drop off after there anyways.

Do you know what gear they ran it in? I've seen people try to run these in 4th on a dyno with odd results. I ran mine in 3rd.

[beepbeep]

Hmm, no offence but something's wrong there. Dyno curve looks like something you would get if you hang a GT40 on 800hp 2.0L four-banger. You have less than 1500 RPM of usable rev range (full boost ~4700 RPM). You either have massive exhaust leak somewhere, or did a pull in too low gear (so turbo didn't have time to spool up) or turbo hot/cold side sizing is mismatched. Car is way late to hit boost compared to maximum power.

Regards,

[911st]

Where are your AFR numbers. Always do AFR with a dyno especially if a new build!

Agreed, something is wrong here. Your wast gate is not opening till about 4800 rpm. So you have a leak or something.

Check the IC to intake connection first. You may only be leaking under boost.

[djdawson2]

I agree with "beep beep's" assessment. That power curve makes it look like the turbo is way oversized for the application. Look at "wiltell's" dyno... he's making 200hp prior to 3500rpm... almost 1000rpm before zx3's is. Something is not right. Willtel's dyno curve looks nice. If willtel and zx3 are both using the same turbo, I'd be scratching my head about the cam choice or looking for some other major leak in the system.

Dave

[RarlyL8]

Will has stock cams and a 7200, ZX3 has 964 cams and and HF.
The stock/7200 graph looks typical.
I would expect the 964/HF combo to be at 1.0bar before 3800rpm.

[911st]

I bet if he had AFR's he would look rich from loosing boost somwhere in the presserized part of the intake.

Another issue could be a dammaged Turbo. I had that happen to me and it felt like the HP graph looks. However, I also had a whisel sound.

The HF I had did start boost early and took longer than my K27-7200 to build boost but not like that.

[911st]

PS, I do not understand putting C2 cams in a motor and not opening up the ports. JMO.

[djdawson2]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

Will has stock cams and a 7200, ZX3 has 964 cams and and HF. The stock/7200 graph looks typical.

Does anyone have a "typical HF turbo/964 cam" dyno graph they could post for comparison purposes?

I know that 964 cams are conventional wisdom in the P-car world... and not to highjack this thread, but I'm wondering why. I've never seen naturally aspirated cams work very well in turbo apps, simply due to overlap. Waste of fuel blowing out the tailpipe, and not much power advantage until high in the powerband. Further, it seems like cams with overlap work very poorly in CIS cars.

What makes a P-car different?

Thanks,
Dave

[ZX3Tuning]

You guys do realize this is a Hub-style Dynapack Dyno, right? it's not a Dynojet or Mustang Dyno.

[911st]

That was what we used years ago when setting up my programmable WUR.

That should not effect the curve. It dose make an assumption and takes the wheel weight out of the equation.

[beepbeep]

Originally Posted by ZX3Tuning

You guys do realize this is a Hub-style Dynapack Dyno, right? it's not a Dynojet or Mustang Dyno.

It does not matter. Hubs take away rolling resistance from the equation so It's even more accurate than rolling road. The torque curve still looks funky and you would probably be beaten by a stock car on the track if both cars use stock 4-gear tranny (by virtue of more area under power curve between shifts).

Check for leaks, check if wastegate is tight. Check ignition advance as well. If everything is OK, you might consider using other type of turbocharger with different sizing.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

Will has stock cams and a 7200, ZX3 has 964 cams and and HF.
The stock/7200 graph looks typical.
I would expect the 964/HF combo to be at 1.0bar before 3800rpm.

On my 94 with HF K27 I am at 1 bar by 3200 rpms with B&B headers if this helps. That was with cat in place without cat I am at 1 bar a bit earlier but don't have any charts to reference.

[DSPTurtle]

No way that is a 4th gear pull... check the rpm vs. mph. It almost look like a 2nd gear pull with those numbers... more likely third. If it was second gear that would explain, maybe, why the turbo never spooled. Although since it is not plotted over time anywhere you really can't tell the ramp rate on the RPM's. Regardless, those are numbers that I am drooling over. I am amazed that a turbo and cams made that much difference. My stock Euro 3.3 (1985) did 281 at the rear wheels. 100 horsies with cams and a turbo??? 12.5 psi is only like .8bar so unless I am missing something I will leave my jaw dropped to the floor.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by DSPTurtle

No way that is a 4th gear pull... check the rpm vs. mph. It almost look like a 2nd gear pull with those numbers... more likely third. If it was second gear that would explain, maybe, why the turbo never spooled. Although since it is not plotted over time anywhere you really can't tell the ramp rate on the RPM's. Regardless, those are numbers that I am drooling over. I am amazed that a turbo and cams made that much difference. My stock Euro 3.3 (1985) did 281 at the rear wheels. 100 horsies with cams and a turbo??? 12.5 psi is only like .8bar so unless I am missing something I will leave my jaw dropped to the floor.

What box does he have. I would not think second gear but third makes sense. I have a 5 speed so my numbers are taken in 4th and I am seeing 129mph at about the same rpms but I produce a little less hp but a lot more torque but I have a 3.6L motor. I also went from 355 at the crank to 385 at the wheels with just headers, a HF K27 and 1 bar spring.