MSD programmable thread
 

Ok thought I'd start a thread on my soon to be new MSD 6530 programmable ignition.
Ordered it on Friday.
Since I already have an MSD 6A install should be pretty easy. I will need the boards assistance/wisdom in programming this thing.

Next item on the agenda- get a MAP sensor

I think the MAP is built in on the programable MSD.

You will have to decide if you want to go to a crank triger or lock the advance in the dist and use the factory triger.

I would go to the MSD web site and look up the manual. I is fun reading.

Kieth,
It's really easy, two graphs one for retard vs rpm and the other for retard vs boost.
You just click on the points and it draws the graph.

My point was that I was looking for you guys to help with how much advance and retard I want.
If you're interested go to the website and download the software it's free.

My plan is to set all retard to zero and get it running with the stock distributor. Then lock it out and tune it from there. Eventually I think I'd like to replace the disti with a crank trigger.

I'm pretty excited it should be fun!

I have been running this MSD 6530 for 4 months now but I set everything to zero to act as 6AL. Honestly, I have no idea on how to lock the distributor and not sure on how to do the correct plotting in the graph.

I've talked to Jerry Woods a few days ago regarding this unit and he said he had installed this before on a customer's 930. He wants me to send the stock distributor to him and he would lock it out and send me the graph to be programmed to the MSD. It's good but quite pricey.

I am glad that 9dreizig got this unit. I hope to learn more on this thread and please post some pictures of the graph if you have done some plotting.

911st, the unit doesn't have a built-in MAP sensor and you need to buy the 3-bar map sensor separately.

930_pit, where are you ? We're running pretty similiar mods.. We should compare notes.
Todd

Maybe use the stock timing curves as a starting point. There is also advance numbers for a C2 turbo here some where that could be referenced. Also, some of the early pre smog cars could be referenced as to a non boost curve. Some ran up to -36 to 38 at WOT at high rpm but they were smaller bore and higher non bost compression.

I think Mark or Cole posted actual advance numbers for a distributor that were posted.

I would have to do some research but might start at about -7 a idle and under no vac or boost run up to about -33 by about 2500 or 3000rpm. With boost I would pull it back to -18 at .8 bar.

One could experiment on the street as to throttle response and even full load using an EGT to a degreed however this is not the best way.

At part load, I have heard we can take up to -40 at cruse if timing is pulled back quickly with load.

I would find a good tuner that has a dyno where the wheels are removed and the motor can be loaded at different rpms to find the ideal at temp ignition settings. However, first the AFR quality should be verified and noted. I think there is a methodoligy where timing is advanced watching how power advances to the point where gains start to go flat. Then it is pulled back to provide a margin of safety. With CIS one might want to pull back more than EFI as AFR's vary more and there is not compensation for intake or operating temps.

This is how we dialed in my custom programmable WUR/Fueler's WOT curve. And I did the the part throtle on the street with a Wide Band. This can not be as easly done with timing as there is probably not a gauge that moniters timing ideals. An Exhaust Gas Temp gauage might be the closest.

Of course it would be nice to start with a good map from a tuner that has done this before and knows the fuel you will be running and build you have. Again, your AFR's might be different and it might not be ideal.

The risk is it might be leaving performance on the table or be to aggressive for a given fuel quality, build, or AFR.

Other than this, it is would just be an educated guess and or trial and error.


Not an expert but hope this will get the ball rolling.

The distributor curve info that Keith refers to can be seen here (but you have to weed through all the other gunk I was spewing at the time about the differences between single and dual pots) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/533781-distributor-vacuum-pot-question-post5265308.html#post5265308
This should give just a ballpark look at things, understanding that not all distributors are created exactly equal.

Todd,

I don't really even know where to start here. I thought we might consider turning this into a collective learning experience for those of us who have or may be considering using the MSD 6530.

The 930 I'm refering to here is an 80 ROW and has a single pot factory distributor. The factory timing spec. is +/- 2* @ 1000 Rpm and 29* @ 4000 Rpm. The distributor has 8* of vacuum advance just off idle and 16* of centrifical advance that starts at 1000 Rpm and is all in at by 1750 Rpm. This is an unmodified stock factory distributor. ( I am using my car here because it is the only known enity we have at this time and is also the same car TODD is installing the 6530 in.)

I would suggest anyone adding the MSD 6530 start by installing the controller
using the distributor as is with the timing and boost retard maps set to 0. That way the controller will operate exactly like a MSD 6AL to make sure your installation is working correctly and functioning properly.

Once you know the controller is functionally correctly you need to pull the distributor and modify it to lock out all advance functions. Locking out the distributor requires that the vacuum advance be removed or plugged and the centrifugal advance weights and springs are removed. Then the distributor advance plate is rotated to the total advanced position and fixed in place. Reinstall the distributor and manually set it's position at 29* advanced and lock it in place with the mounting bolt. What you are doing here is setting the distributor at the maximim advance position and now you can program yor timing curve totally with the 6530 and you are assured the distributor cannot exceed 29* max advance.

At this point it might be a good idea to program a timing curve that emulates the stock curve above and test your work with this known enity. If the car runs and responds as it did with the factory distributor you can now start looking at the boost curve. WARNING: At this point you have no boost retard available because the distributor is locked down and no retard provided by a vacuum advance canister. So either take it real easy or turn down the boost to .5 Bar untill we get some boost retard programmed in.

To program a boost curve you must first install a MAP sensor to input boost pressure into the controller so you have boost pressure to reference you timing retard against. I have included GM and MSD MAP sensor part numbers and a MAP sensor connector below. I would suggest using a 3 Bar MAP sensor.


The MSD part# for the MAP connector is 8172

MAP sensor info:

GM

3Bar 12223861
2Bar 16040609
1Bar 16137939

MSD

3Bar MSD 2313
2Bar MSD 2312
1Bar MSD 2311

Before we continue from here let's get some more input, opinions, suggestions from others.

Cole

9dreizig,

I am from Las Vegas. My other forum name is 930_noob and 930_pit is my original forum name. I used the 930_noob as I classify myself as a newbie with this car even though I have own this car for 5 years now but I will use 930_pit from now on. I am more of a lurker than a poster.
Yes, that’s good we could compare notes.
I don’t know if you have upgraded your DWUR to their latest one but the one I got last September ‘09 is not reading the RPM signal from the MSD coil. According to Frank of Unwired, the DWUR would still work without the RPM signal going to the DWUR but would not benefit from the additional 50 lbs of torque if the DWUR is reading the RPM. This is why I am sending back my DWUR to Frank for a hardware update so it could cater the programmable MSD.



Arlon

Thanks Cole for your input.

Hey Arlon, long time no hear! Glad to see you've stopped lurking in the background.

Cole is breaking some new ground; that is, as soon as he blows the cob webs off his motor and stuffs it back in the car. The running bet is: Will Cole get the car running with the progammable MSD before I swap out my 7006 with the 7200 turbo sitting on the shelf? ;)

One question: Why stop with the dizzy locked out to 29 degrees advance...why not ramp it up higher (no boost, of course) and just set your program to retard it off quickly when boost starts to show?

Hey Mark, yes it's been a long time since I bugged you! LOL!

I've been waiting for you and Cole to install the MSD 6530 so I would learn how to do it. That's good to know that Cole is going to install his unit soon.

I talked to Mr. Jerry Woods again this morning and probably would jump onto his service. If it pushed thru, I would post the info here.

Hey guys really good stuff.. I've decided to add one more element into the mix since I have one of the below programmable hand grenade.. I think I'll install it but first find a 0.5 bar spring (anyone know where I can get one? - it's a stock waste gate). That will allow me to tune this gently and inch into it.
Cole have you shopped the MAP sensor ? Was wondering where I could get it the cheapest? Oh and what do you think ? the 2Bar or 3 Bar map ?? and is that relative to atmosphere ? The reason I ask is that with Unwired tools it's not hence 2 bar = 1 bar boost

Arlon,
Yes I have the most recent updated and it really works well on the tach signal. I must say I'm pretty pleased

PS.. I think I'll get the MSD on Friday I need to call my source

Ok here's the animalhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1272421819.jpg

Todd,

Best prices on Ebay, you can get the 2 Bar relatively cheap but that doesn't leave any room to stretch the boost. In fact I may have a 2 bar laying around here some place. I recommended the 3 Bar because the first Bar is atmosphere but if your never going to push the envelope it would work fine. I probably have a
connector too.

Cole

9dreizig, that's good to know. I hope I could get mine back fast. But I still have my stock WUR so I'll install it first while waiting for the upgraded DWUR.

The MSD tech recommended 3 bar map sensor. That's what I got. I think it measures pressure the same as the DWUR. 0 to 1 bar is absolute pressure and above 1 Bar is the boost pressure. If you are reading 1.5 bar on the DWUR in the computer, I believe it's actually 0.5 bar of boost.

Cole,

I created an timing graph for the data that you've shared for an '80 930. I am not sure if this is correct but this is how I understand it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Total timing is 29. On the run retard curve, it could only retard as much as 25 deg. timing maximum.

On the graph, from 0 to 900 rpm, I am retarding the timing by 25 deg. So, 29-25 = 4, the initial timing is 4 deg (idle). Off idle, retarding from 25 to 17 (8 deg. vacuum advance all in by 1750 rpm).

Retarding from 17 to 0 (mechanical advance) all in by 4000 rpm.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...930_pit002.jpg

Arlon, thanks.. so now we need to add in the boost curve and my question is are the additive? I assume they are.. so we need to do the math ourselves I assume ?

Guy's

The timing curve I posted is the stock curve from the single pot distributor on my 930. That curve can be greatly improved upon I'm sure. I'm thinking ya want
2-3*at start and then 10-12* by 1000 - 15000 Rpm to get it off it's ass and then do another 16*or so all in by 2500 - 3000 Rpm. Have the distributor locked down at whatever your total ends up being. There is no real advantage forr total timing to be any greater than that.

On the retard timing I think you want to take out enough to get you back 20-22* at 1 Bar starting retard at .5 Bar. The Ideal way to do a retard map would be to get a MAP sensor readout from a LM-1 or similar device and plot the retard based on the boost curve itself. Just make the retard curve emulate the actual boost curve. I'm leaning toward the .5 Bar start point for retard because I don't think it is necessary to start boost retard any earlier. The boost curve is going to be different from car to car based on equipment and once you can see the boost curve it should pretty much tell you whats needed.

Cole

Hey guys. I just ordered two map 3 bar sensors WITH the connector and free shipping for $44 each from http://www dot 1aauto dot com/
Killer deal

This is the boost retard curve I made the way I understand it but could be wrong.

total timing = 29 degrees

0 to 1 bar (0 to 14.7) = no retard

1 bar to 1.5 bar ( 14.7 - 22) = 0 to 0.5 bar boost - no retard

1.5 to 2 bar (22 - 29.5) = 0.5 to 1 bar boost = 9 degrees boost retard to make 20 degrees timing under 1 bar boost


Sorry for the pics, it is quite small. Photobucket is automatically shrinking it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...930_pit004.jpg

Guy's

I've got a bit of a "while you are in there" deal going. With the addition of the 6530 I'm contemplating adding a crank trigger for better timing control. The MSD's will take a direct crank trigger input from a magnetic, nonmagnetic, or Hall effects sensor. That allows you to gut the distributor down to just the shaft and rotor and eliminate any phase shift issues. It uses a 60-2 wheel and makes it much easier to check and maintain accurate timing.

I found a nice little setup that pretty reasonable.




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1272575479.jpg


Cole

Sooooweeet! Keep this up Cole, and you might as well go EFI. But I know, you're a purist...making CIS work as well as it possibly can.

I think I would be afraid to drive your car, especially with the 5 speed and shorter gears. I have a feeling keeping it straight down the road can be a challenge. Mine, it just does a nice rear-end "grunt" (like a dog for his first movement in the morning) when I put serious foot into it in 1st. The front end completly un-weights and I swear I'll need wheelie wheels, but still maintains traction. Probably because I'm still running with a 7006.

Gimp,

I'm still running the old 4 speed. It and that CIS have been together for 30 years and I'd hate to break them up.

You probably better reconsider putting that 7200 on, it may be more that your heart can take. I have a defibrillator in my chest and it will jump start me it the rush gets too great, but with you, it could be suicide.

Cole

Is there a vac advance map function to advance timing behond WOT normally asperated timing.

That is, I am assunming the base map should be an ideal if there was no boost at WOT. (Maybe tune this map with no spring in the WG or better yet a gutted WG).

We add on top of that, retard with boost.

Can we add in advance at less than WOT at cruse?

Kieth,
There is no vacuum advance. Only retard. Therefore we will need to set the advance mechanically and then the retard will be from that point. Shouldn't be a problem as there is 25 degrees of retard possible. As I understand it the closest we get to top dead center is 2-4 degrees at start so if we have 28 degrees of advance in then 25 full retard will end with 3 degrees..

This needs to be verifited but if it only has 25 deg of advance I would probably try to start at about 7 to 10 deg at idle and let it advance to -32 to -35 and be full in in the -2500 to 4000rpm range.

Should make it peppy off the line and with near -35 on cruse and let it still get pretty good gas milage.

Then use about 15 deg of boost retard to pull it back to about -20 at .8 bar or -19 at 1 bar.

Then tune from there.

Hey guys an update. I have mine installed (replaced my old 6A) so the only thing I had to set was the max rpm and number of cylinders. Since I'm traveling and moving the next few weeks I don't anticipate doing anything else to it for a while. I did varify that the computer was up and running, guages on the screen work etc.. Installation was easy and clean. I'm looking forward to playing with it. Oh and the DWUR is also running well and rpms all match (DWUR, tach, MSD).
The game plan is to install another MAP , so I can plot AFR vs RPM vs Boost with my LM-2

Cole,

I am not sure you can use that type of wheel to trigger the MSD. I think you need something that sends one signel every 120 deg.

Keith,

You are absolutely correct. I'm having a hard time finding a 3 magnet balancer wheel any ideas.

Cole

Cole, I"m not sure of the advantage anyway. Our units are mag pick up and you'll still need the distributor to disctribute the spark .

My original intent was to be able to get timing into the Lm-1. The crank trigger would give me crank position but that doesn't get me a spark input I can use to
be able to calculate timing. I'm on about plan D now.

Wanted to tell you I got drug to Detroit on Fri. and got back about 1 Am Sat. I was also gone all weekend and haven't been able to send out your hose yet. I also found the charge pipe you wanted last nite. Let me know what you want to do. I should be available all week just give me a call when it's good for you.

Cole

I have been thinking about this and have some thoughts.

Some are finding it an effort as to locking out the distribuitor or finding a trigger.

We are also limited to a total advance range of 25 deg when I belive we could use up to as much as 30 to 40 deg's of advance.

I am thinking we could concider wraping this thing around the existing mechanical advance system with the stock Pot retard functions disabled.

If we keep the stock mechanical advance in place we can program around this. This would give us about 15 deg of mechanical advance plus the 25 deg of MSD advance for up to a 40 deg timing range.


I think a starting point might be the following 'goals'.

-5 deg at idle quickly going to say -15 by 1500rpm.

Full advance of -35 by about 3500rpm with no boost. (Big improvement in motor temp and MPG).

-20 deg by .8 bar or -19 by 1 bar.

Thus, if the mechanical advance curve is a total of about 15 deg between 1000rpm and 3000rpm that is about 3.75 deg advance per 500rpm.

We could set up the MSD as follows.

Base map would start at idle at -13 (35 less 15, less 7 ). We will retime the motor at the pully latter.

1500rpm would be at about -9 (35 less apx 15, plus 3.75, less 15)

From 1500 to 3500 it would go from -9 at 1500 of base retard to 0 retard at say 3500rpm.

That would be the base map starting point.


Then boost retard map would need to be programed to able to retard from -35 total advance to -19 at 1 bar boost.

This would probably taper from a maifold pressure 15 being 0 retard and a straight line to 16 deg of retard (35 less 19) by a maniflod pressure of 30. It could continue to retard further at higher boost. We could even get more agressive at higher boost levels as a soft boost limiter.

With these programed in, we would then have to retime the ditribuitor using a timing light.

We would have to mesure off a timing mark on the pully to -35 degs.

Then timing would be set at -35 at 4000rpm with the vac line to the MAP sensor dissonected. This might require moving the distribuitor indexing one tooth.


Then with the MAP sensor hooked back up we should hit our stated timing goals and then further fine tuning can be done from there.

Kieth,
Funny I was just on the phone with Cole discussing this very thing. My question was what would happen if we lost a vacuum line going to the MAP ? The control would have no way of knowing that the boost just didn't go to zero.. So my thoughts were wouldn't keeping the mechanical retard in place provide us a tiny bit of security ??
Hey my offer to drive over with this thing and let you help me tune it is open ( or come to my place in Reno!)

Guys,

Unless I'm missing something here you can't do that. The original vacuum canister moves (advances) the advance plate of the distributor. To utilize the programming function of the 6AL-2 the first thing we do is gut the springs and weights and then move the advane plate to it's advance limit and pin it in place at full advance. The advance plate is no longer movable.

Cole

Ok since I've never taken one of these apart is there a seperate advance AND retard ?? My thoughts were to take the advance vacuum lines out, leaving the retard functions, which are based on inertia ?

Cole,

My thought is to plug or disconnect the two vac lines to the pot which keeps it from contributing any retard but keep the mechanical advance.

This is just one step in between what I think you or someone here might already be doing (re Chris / 356-930) by advancing static timing for better low end and using an MSD to add more boost retard to bring timing back to a safe level -- and going full out by locking down the mechanical advance and removing the pot.


I think you are using: Higher Initial Advance + Mechanical Advance+ Boost Retard, + Vac Retard, + MSD retard.

I am talking about: Higher Initial Advance + (Mechanical Advance + MSD Base Map timing) + MSD Map retard= Total Advance.



Todd,

Thanks for the offer. My wife when there this weekend for mother's day. Did not think about coming up and doing Porsche stuff. I was more trying to get out of the woman's stuff.

It is always good to ask what if there is a failure. In this case we might ask, which has a higher chance of failure. The old Pot on the dist with out us knowing so. Or the MSD timing maps failing but the MSD keeping on working. Most likely if the MSD is starting and the idle speed is ok, everything should be ok on boost.

The way most 930's are probably set up the vac tubes to the dist are probably down sloping. This lets condensate from the motor cooling to drain moisture into the pot and make for potential corrosion. Especially after 25 years.

Todd, the weights and springs are mechanical advance. The Pot is vac-retard and boost-retard.

Cole,

Could you cut most the teeth off the pully you referance and keep 3 at 120 deg each.

MSD also makes timing wheels that I belive go in the dist.