I'll add to 'no start' thread after I figure it out ... need your brains, please
 

OK, my car will not start using the normal procedure, but I can get it to start and run fine. I need your help.

I recently reinstalled my engine.
- used spray electronic cleaner and/or wire brushes on all contacts prior to reconnecting
- cleaned ground strap to body mount and cable
- cleaned ground strap to trans mount and cable
- cleaned all three connections on starter
- cleaned multi pin wiring loom connection brick on firewall
- cleaned multi pin wiring loom connection brick in driver's rear wheel fuse area
- cleaned battery terminals
- cleaned battery cables

Put key in ignition, turn key - starter clicks but will not turn over engine

Took starter out, put in vice; connected jumpers to positive terminal and to mounting flange, jump wire between positive post and switch terminal, and starter works like brand new. Put starter back in car. ...click...

Try to cut to the chase and attach positive jumper cable from spare battery (yes I bought a new battery, too) to starter positive post. Attach negative jumper to trans bolt near ground strap. Turn dash key to start and car starts right up and runs great. ...

Disconnnect jumpers to starter and engine stumbles but keeps running. turn off and try key...click...

Both batteries are above 12 volts.

So, this is where I am right now. Key will not start car, but if I add jumpers to the starter the car will start. If I add same jumpers to battery in front car will not start.

Somewhere between the battery and the rear of the car is some resistance or a bad connection.

Can anyone help me figure our where I should try using my multimeter to trace the fault?

I assume the body is the ground, so figure I should be chasing the positive circuit between front and rear. I see the starter positive cable goes into the loom, through the engine tin near the oil cooler, across the engine and seems to split with part going to firewall multi pin brick and part going to rear fender multi pin brick. Not sure which pins to test or where to go from there.

Is it possibly the CDI? I notice I get no tach signal but was hoping I could troubleshoot that separately. If it was the CDI I would think it would not run at all, whereas it does run if the jumpers are attached to the starter and trans.

Any advice?

I continued to work on this today.
I am wondering if perhaps the solenoid is drawing too many amps.
Does anyone know how many amps the solenoid should draw? - I'll check the sticky no start thread as soon as I post this, too.

Should I test with key turned to start position?

Do your starter wire connections look like this:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1276391953.jpg
Provided you're certain you've got all the wires hooked up to the right location, ticky but no-startie usually means a bad solenoid internal connection (copper contacts that close to send full amps to the starter). Sounds like your starter is fine, but no juice is being connected to it via the solenoid when it closes.

The part that's funny and probably a tell-tale sign is that the car stumbles and runs poorly after started and the remote jumper battery is removed. Alternator diode bad, perhaps?

Sorry not much help. Hang in there, lots of people out there with intimate starter knowledge.

Had a toyota 4 runner do that intermitantly for about 8 years. turned out to be a bad ingnition switch. Having a similar problem with mine now but i am not getting the alternator light when i start the car. So tomorrow i am pulling the alternator to start trouble shooting.

Yes, the cables to the starter look like the picture. I'll be back at it today, so will let you know how I make out.

re seated tach connector (black male/female tube with pin connection) and now tach is working.

Car starts great if I connect aux battery to positive starter pole and run other cable to ground. Still just clicks if I rely only upon the battery in the trunk.

Battery voltage in trunk is 12.7 volts. Aux battery is similar.

WTF...this almost smells of a bad ground connection. I know you cleaned all your grounds. Didn't forget to attach the ground strap on the transmission, did you? (silly stupid obvious question, I know, but had to ask).

removed strap from trans and wire brushed it and the washers and sprayed with elcetronics cleaner. Same thing on the end that straps to the body.

Even ran a third cable from battery ground post in trunk to trans to bypass grounding from trans to body. No improvement.

OK, I hope I am on some sort of path toward isolating this. Here are my voltage readings:

With wife holding key in "engage starter" position:
voltage at positive post = 10.2 volts
voltage at middle terminal (yellow cable) = 0.49 volts
voltage at lower terminal (starter switch lead? - other yellow) = 0.49 volts

So, I am guessing the positive post at the starter should be seeing 12volts not 10.2volts. Or is this 10.2v a reasonable value to see when the solenoid is engaged / switch is "on start"? Does the 1.8volt difference between battery voltage (12+volts) and the starter post voltage during starting indicate the solenoid is drawing too much voltage? Should I expect to see a much smaller voltage drop?

If the solenoid is not sucking up the 1.8volts, then I guess I must be losing it between the battery and the starte post...

First question: I assume the positive power gets to the started via the multi pin bricks on the firewall and on the rear driver's side fender well. Anyone know which pins supply the 12volts? I suspect I should measure there next?

Second question: what is the middle terminal lead for - what does that yellow wire go to?

Today I started it up with the aux battery again (jumpered to positive lead on starter and to ground on transmission).

I checked voltage on the aux battery with the engine running and it showed 14.27volts at idle. So, it seems the alternator is charging.

I checked the battery in the trunk and it is 12.26volts. So it seems the charging current is not reaching the front.

Seems too weird to me. Current from front battery is enough to throw the solenoid but not enough to crank the engine. CDI, alternator, all systems seem to work fine. Aux battery will easily start engine, and registers a charge from alternator.

So it seems to me I am back where I started: something between the front and rear is either drawing load or blocking current (or ground).

Does anyone know which pins I should check or which wires I should check to narrow down the part of the circuit that is causing the issue?

Jeeze, I love a good mystery...especially when it's somebody elses. So, on that "new battery": are you referring to the new secondary jumper battery, or the one in the car? Almost sounds like a bad cell.
OK, I'm reaching a bit...sorry if stupid question, but a bad cell in the battery will do exactly what you're describing.

Did you get the alternator warning light? does it come on when you turn the key and then go off once it starts? If so there is a trouble shooting section in the manual for that. it can be as simple as the alt warning light bulb burned out. mine was doing something very similar and wasn't charging the battery turned out to be a burned out Diode in that same circuit. I chased this problem for several months as it was intermittent. found it a couple days ago. I didn't know the alternator warning light was supposed to come on when you start the car. After i found out that it was pretty easy to find. hope this helps.

Don't remember if you tried already but just switch the trunk battery for the new one that is conformed to start the car from the starter. When my car arrived after 2months in a container the optima was really dead, so dead it would not start with a helper battery connected to it. I had to replace the battery to get it started.

So sounds like there might be a short on the trunk battery.

I have swapped the battery and that makes no difference. Both are over 12 volts. Bad cell would drop to 10+ volts.

I'll check the alternator light. I do jnot recall seeing the alternator light being lit at all.

The terminal on the bottom of the solenoid with yellow wire gets full voltage which is over 12volts. So that seems to be good.

The top lead - the positive post on the solenoid with the large red cable is the one not getting the 12 volts when the key is turned to start. Where does that cable go after it leaves the starter? To the alternator? Is there then a cable from the alternator to the battery?

The engine will start with key if I connect 12 volts to the positive post on the starter. Once started if I disconnect the jumper and multi meter the red cable on the starter positive post it reads over 14 volts, so it seems the alternator is charging. But if I leave the jumper cable disconnected the engine will diue - the battery in the front is not getting the charge.

I think my next stpe is to remove the fan/alternator to see if one of those leads is dirty/loose, etc. Is it possible while engine was upside down on stand some oil got into the connection or perhaps become loose? I am wondering if there is a lead from the alternator to the starter and from the alternator to the battery (which seems to make sense to me) that may be the issue.

Advice? Anyone else ever had this happen?

I'm not sure how, but the power from the alternator runs through the starter. I found this out when I had what I thought was a bad alternator. Replace the alternator, only to find I had the same problem. Took a look at the starter and the nut holding the large red wire was loose. :rolleyes: What a waste of time and money.

I had the same symptoms only with the diode being shot in the alternator warning light circuit. Do you have a Bentley manual? if not get one there is a very good trouble shooting chart in it.follow that and it will guide you through to a solution. I also have a perfectly good alternator on my work bench for the same reason. On the another note the Bosch re manufactured starter that i bought in Feb is now tits up. Fortunately there is a one year warranty on it so I'll be running down to exchange it in the morning. Same old will not turn over when hot issue. next time i have to buy a starter i am either buying a new Bosch starter or one of those high torque ones.

I searched for a bentley for 930 last week but there is none? Do you guys talk about the one for the 911 carrera?

The Bentley manual? I thought was for the 84-89 Carrera, although it has a lot of info that applies to the Turbo.

This forum is the Bentley manual for 930's. The Bentley's great for mundane stuff like how to remove the door window and other such generic 911 stuff. Otherwise, one must rely on the brain trust that resides here.

there is a really good trouble shooting guide in the 84 to 89 carrera Bentley manual that deals with the alternator warning light circuit. which is common to both cars. It you are not getting the alt warning light when you turn the key before the car starts it will not charge the battery all the way. Thought it was BS until i fixed mine.

oh and I took in my Remanufactured Bosch starter that i bought in Feb. They refunded my money for the reman starter and i got a high torque one to replace it. works great.!!

I think the hi torque starter only has two posts - positive and switch. Where did you connect the third wire (the second yellow wire that goes to the middle post on the stock starter)?

that wire i believe goes to the cold start injector. it is only energized when the starter is turning. So on a stock starter the yellow wire energizes a coil that closes a set of contacts that supplies battery power to the starter motor and the cold start injector. So all you have to do is make a small jumper with a 5/16ths ring terminal and connect it on the bottom of the starter motor where the power comes from the solenoid to the motor. (if you look on the stock one in the picture above. It's the large terminal with the braided wire that goes to the motor.)connect that jumper to the yellow/blue wire. and Viola it works!!!! The main battery cable though barely reached I had to reroute it. the connections are on the top of the starter out of reach. So you have to make the connections before it's bolted in. Then tighten the nuts to hold in the starter then tighten the nut holding the battery cable to the terminal post. Hope this helps

update: ran errands in the car all day today even purposely ran the battery low and it fired up every time love the new starter.

That's good news! I added the info about the wire from the starter to the CSV to the sticky, under "starter".

So far today I made the following progress:
- replaced starter with hi torque starter, used the jumper mod described in this thread. Starter works great.
- removed fan and alternator. Removed all leads and grounds and brushed, cleaned, and re mounted. I saw no issues in this space.

I am still stumped.

If I connect a positive jumper lead to the starter positive, and ground the other jumper to the trans, the car starts with the ignition key. Alternator light works, and I register over 14volts on the auxiliary battery so the alternator is working.

I notice if I do not connect the aux battery, but have the switch on, the alternator light does not light up and the CDI does not whine. Two more clues?

Does anyone know where the CDI gets its power from? Is there a starter relay somewhere, or some sort of relay that woudl prevent the starter from getting power to the 12volt pole as well as prevent the CDI from getting power?

OK, today I took apart the 14 pin connector in the right rear fender area.

On the female (engine) connector...if I connect 12v to positive pole I get power through the red wire which is PIN 14 I believe. So, I conclude the red main wire to the starter is a good circuit. Is this a good conclusion?

On the male side (car body) Pin 1, which is yellow gets good power when key is on. I believe this powers the solenoid when switched. So this seems good. Also, when I hit the key the solenoid closes, so I figure this circuit is good. Is this a reasonable conclusion?

This leaves me with the red wire on male side of connector at pin 14. I believe this is supposed to be powered all times when key is on, and I believe this would power the positive pole on the starter. Can someone tell me if this is a right or wrong conclusion?

Pin 14 red wire on male side does not seem to deliver any voltage to the engine. I assume it should. If correct then this is my first real clue to follow.

Does anyone know where that red wire comes from inside the car? For example, can I trace it from the ignition switch? Or is there a relay? I checked it on the battery end and it delivers voltage, so it seems my open circuit is between the frunk wall and the rear 14 pin connector.

Can anyone else help me with some advice or knowledge?

Thanks

I have looked at all the 14 pin threads and they have not helped me beyond this point.

Finally figured it out and car is running fine now.

I am ashamed to admit the root cause, but I will in case anyone else ever forgets.

When I took the car apart months ago, I wrapped the black lead from the battery up and tucked it up out of the way so I would not have to worry about it arcing or anything.

When I put things back together, I concentrated on the red and yellow wires and forgot all about the black lead. From below it looked just like one of the cables to the rear parking brakes or heater boxes. I finally put on my glasses and got undet the car again and traced everything, and discovered I had not reconnected this lead. Of course this is the most crucial lead in the engine bay, but I just had put it out of my mind.

So there you have it. Problem solved and the issue was the black lead from the body to the starter was not connected.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

Did you paint the starter? If so it might not be making a good ground where it mates to the transmission

Ya know, when you first posted this problem, that thought occured to me only because I did something similar the first time I pulled the engine. Ended up crawling around underneath and finding that one wire yet to be connected. Don't feel bad, you're the second person I know of to do that. The rest of them, they're keeping silent.

Black lead? I only recall 3 wires to the starter. The heavy red one and two yellow wires. There's a flat ground strap from the trans to the body. Has this been replaced with a black ground wire on yours?

There is a large black positive feed that comes from the battery to the positive pole on the starter. Then there is a red lead that goes on this same pole and goes to the alternator. There is a yellow lead tha goes to a middle connection that powers some shut down delay sensors from what I read. Then there is a third yellow lead that gets switched power form the key and from the 14 pin connector in the left rear. This last lead is what powers the solenoid.

So, today I get to drive it for the first time since last fall! With all the problems I had with the digital WUR and then having the LSD rebuilt, I have not been able to drive since last fall. I'm thrilled. It will be interesting to see how the Leask WUR works out as opposed to the digital WUR I removed. Right now my idle AFR is about 14.1.

I was thinking all there was what is shown below, but the more I think about it your right, as the power runs from the alternator to the starter and then to the battery. I'd just forgotten about it. Besides it would be difficult for the lead to reach when my engine is sitting on a dolly in the pix.

I hate getting old...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277664550.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277664560.jpg

yep I did that one also lol i usually disconnect the battery then pull the wires off the starter then tape the exposed end then reconnect the battery so the door locks and alarm still works. while the engine is out. first time i did it though i remembered as soon as i turned the key and nothing happened.

Sorry to bump this up.


I have exactly the same issue. I need to jump start with a battery or booster pack to start the car.
The battery is showing 13.18v on a full recharge. Battery poles cleaned, 13.5-14v when running.

Start perfectly when jump start with no hesitation but just clicks when you tried to start again.

I alway's leave the motor running putting gas or else :).

Any picture where the starter is located? I'll start with the black lead to make sure it's on.

If it isn't the thick cables on the starter motor how old is your battery?
When they are old and sulfated they can still show around 13 volts but the available cranking amps is so low it won't start the car.

The stock starter is plenty for a 930. It has an easier life on a 930 than any other car because of the low 7:1 compression.

The battery still "looks" new but I think the ancient owner didn't really use the car for more than 2 years prior to the sale.
Weird that the car did'nt have any of this for two month and now I have to jump start after every shutdown.

I still can find where the starter is but I can't find some time to do it.

Thanks for you reply. Maybe the starting amp isn't striong enough to start the car it just clicks and nothing turns. When I but the booster pack it fires instantly.

I bring my 2 booster packs with me everywhere and pretty funny to start my car the last 2 weeks even after a good night at the restaurant looking in the hood and plugging it. :)

It was only the battery for future reference.
Was showing 13.18v charged and 13-14v when running.

Thanks for your help